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  • #31
    Researching a kinder and gentler weight training

    These results indicate that when intensity and volume are equated, failure or nonfailure training results in similar gains in lower body muscular endurance. Therefore, when assessed over relatively short training cycles, the total volume of training might be more important versus whether sets are pe …


    not training to failure
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    • #32
      urance periodized training scheme. Methods: Forty-three trained male rowers were matched and then randomly assigned to four groups that performed the same endurance training but differed on their resistance training regimen: four exercises leading to repetition failure (4RF; n = 14), four exercises not leading to failure (4NRF; n = 15), two exercises not to failure (2NRF; n = 6), and control group (C; n = 8). One-repetition maximum strength and maximal muscle power output during prone bench pull (BP), average power during a 20-min all-out row test (W20min), average row power output eliciting a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol·L−1 (W4mmol·L−1), and power output in 10 maximal strokes (W10strokes) were assessed before and after 8 wk of periodized training. Results: 4NRF group experienced larger gains in one-repetition maximum strength and muscle power output (4.6% and 6.4%, respectively) in BP compared with both 4RF (2.1% and −1.2%) and 2NRF (0.6% and −0.6%). 4NRF and 2NRF groups experienced larger gains in W10strokes (3.6% and 5%) and in W20min (7.6% and 9%) compared with those found after 4RF (−0.1% and 4.6%), whereas no significant differences between groups were observed in the magnitude of changes in W4mmol·L−1 (4NRF = 6.2%, 4RF = 5.3%, 2NRF = 6.8%, and C = 4.5%). Conclusions: An 8-wk linear periodized concurrent strength and endurance training program using a moderate number of repetitions not to failure (4NRF group) provides a favorable environment for achieving greater enhancements in strength, muscle power, and rowing performance when compared with higher training volumes of repetitions to failure in experienced highly trained rowers....


      more specific to weight and endurance training together which is what ADK hikers should probably be doing.
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      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        The way they ran their test is a really good way to injury yourself or get thrown out of any gym I've ever worked out in, if I'm reading that correctly.

        When I lift I typically aim for 4 sets of 12 reps, sometimes 3 sets depending on the exercise. When I can do 3x12 while maintaining form I increase weight. If I can't its because I reached muscle failure before I hit my total reps. If you don't have a yard stick, there's no means of measuring progression.

        To be fair, this isn't the same for every exercise. For example you could do 3x12 pushups every day for the rest of your life and will probably be in better shape than the average person. This might be totally adequate for whatever your goal is; no reason to progress to 4x12 or 3x20, etc. If you're actively trying to add muscle, you need to be working out at or near your threshold. The study is making a case for endurance rowing exercises, but this is an aerobic exercise. You wouldn't want to workout to failure in an aerobic exercise. This is why D1 crew teams are usually really tall, lanky people. If you want your physique to be more like Jim Bridwell's (RIP, see links below) or the Iron Cowboy (of 50-50-50 fame), You'll need to know where your limits are, which means strength training using failure as a baseline.





        Edit: just to clarify, I don't just exercise for the sake of hiking. If you have no interest in adding any muscle mass, then certainly don't exercise to muscle failure. Its just important to note that muscle failure can be achieved by doing high rep/low weight exercises too. I don't know of anyone who still follows that old 5-7 rep method. It just leads to injuries.

    • #33
      There are tons of people in my gym working to failure. Sweating, grunting and pushing out every last rep. I thought this was the way to do it, which is why I started with StrongLifts 5X5 program.

      I can not do that program. Too old and too skinny. I settled into doing the same lifts, 3X12 like yourself on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

      Doing that many days was not sustainable so I went to: Lift, Rest, Run, Repeat. 3X12.

      Now its Lift, Rest, Run, Repeat 3X5. The 5 reps are done using a weight I can lift to failure 12 times. When you get only 5 reps you really focus on quality. I did my first workout last night and have alot less pain. Time will tell if I progress...





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      • #34
        Lifting to failure, especially with just a few reps is a big no-no for endurance athletes. It builds bulk that you have to lug around. Lifting to one rep shy of failure, which takes some trial and error, is supposedly very beneficial. It's well explained in TftNA and on Uphill Athlete.com.

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        • #35
          I guess its a matter or goals. If your goal is to be rail thin for the purpose of moving uphill faster and carrying less weight, then Uphill Athlete is the training plan for you. When you're talking about lifting free weights and doing exercises like curls, dumbell press etc., and lifting to a single rep shy of failure vs. lifting to actual failure over a set of 10-12 reps, this is just splitting hairs. There also needs to be a clear definition of what muscle failure actually is.

          If you're capable of doing, lets say 12 reps of 100LBS and on the 13th rep you can barely move the weight, that 13th rep is muscle failure. Stopping at 12 because its "one rep shy of failure" is not giving you some overarching advantage. In fact, most people I know would call the 12th rep their failure rep because its the last one that counts.

          I'm not suggesting that anyone lifts to the point of "getting swole." This does nothing but increase the likelihood of injuries and heart problems, in addition to being inefficient. At the same time, the link I provided above for the Iron Cowboy is a good example of obtaining noticeable muscle mass through proper lifting and still being more capable than the average athlete. The guy did 50 consecutive full Iron Man length events. I don't know how fast he can run up a mountain, but his muscularity is certainly not affecting his ability to perform at the elite endurance level.
          My mind was wandering like the wild geese in the west.

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          • #36
            Neil,

            I would just point out that traditionally power lifters do 5 rep sets and body builders do 12 rep sets.

            Power lifters have less bulk than body builders.

            I just could not do 5 rep sets to failure.

            Now there are alot of people choosing quality over failure. It just seems more doable for me which in the end is what you have to do.
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            • FlyFishingandBeer
              FlyFishingandBeer commented
              Editing a comment
              Quality and failure are the exact same thing. This is what I've been harping on. The very first rep where your muscles are so fatigued that your form gets sloppy and the rep "doesn't count," that's muscle failure for the group you have isolated to work on for that exercise.

              5 rep sets are going to make you stronger but its doing virtually nothing for your muscle endurance. You're training them to become exhausted faster. Again, I'm referring you back to the Iron Cowboy link that I posted above. Go to the strength training section and you'll see that triathletes/ultra athletes are encouraging sets as high as 18 reps for some exercises. 12 is a good target.

          • #37
            I've been following this thread with a lot of interest as I would like to extend my range in the mountains. Especially with the aggressive (for me) hiking schedule I have for 2019. There are several training programs on uphillathlete.com but I'm not real sure which one would fit best with the ADKs. The various individual exercises that have been discussed here are great but I really want a full-scale plan to follow. My best guess would be the 12 Week Trekking Plan. Comments, sarcastic or otherwise, are welcome.
            Me - Done
            Mrs - 19.9/46

            A trail without mud is like a day without sunshine.

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            • Bunchberry
              Bunchberry commented
              Editing a comment
              I am glad some one finds this thread interesting!

          • #38
            What are your resources and what kind of working out have you done in the past and present.


            Do you have money to burn? Do you have time to work out? Are there hills near you?
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          • #39
            The rational for lifting 4 or 5 reps when you would fail at 5 or 6 (and then resting for 3-4 minutes) is to enhance the neurological recruitment of muscle motor units. The idea is that when doing an endurance sport this will enable you to rotate through and therefore use a greater percentage of muscle fibers. Untrained individuals will only use the same 20% of their fibers and these will become depleted of glycogen fairly quickly. Trained athletes will use a greater percentage and by doing the one-lift-short-of-failure protocol they will supposedly get up to 80% of their fibers into the rotation. This is said to increase your endurance greatly. You should let about 4 days go by between these workouts and you shouldn't do them without having spent 2-3 months doing "normal" weight training.

            I haven't looked for the original research articles that this method is based on but I bet if someone looked they could find them!

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            • #40
              I do long distance running and the training I do for that is not the same I would do if I was only hiking.

              The end goal is maximum time to exhaustion for both, but the load profiles of the movements are very different.

              In running you're trying to develop strenght without mass in a way that your body can better deal with the high force eccentric moments everytime your feet punch the ground. You hit the ground extremely hard when running and high strenght is required to push off in a short amount of time as well. In running you also want to have tight leg mechanics (stiff tendons) so you get mechanical effeciency gains. So this translates to low reps / high loads such as 7-10RM squats as well as high reps plyometric exercises such box jumps.

              In hiking though you do not need the tendon stiffness you need in running. The movement is not an eccentric contraction due to the lack of impact (if managed properly going downhill). So plyometrics are out the window. You want to mostly add endurance and throw flexibility into the mix without adding weight. My recommendation for hiking is then a combination of 25RM sets with a full range of movement and stretching exercises.

              The best way to maximise time to exhaustion is also to reduce the overall and peak load as a function of time and spread it across as many muscle groups as possible. That means go slower, minimize weight and use poles so you can engage your upper body.

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              • Bunchberry
                Bunchberry commented
                Editing a comment
                You know going to 20 to 25 reps is really appealing to me and makes sense, but I don't see anyone doing that.

                I don't see one mountaineering website or training website saying that. I have seen several fitness websites say you could get bigger muscles doing that but if your training for endurance you might as well just do your endurance sport training and you would be better off.

                I wish I had another me to give that a try.

            • #41
              Well, yesterday I took my muscles out for a maximum effort on Buck Mountain.

              Maximum efforts are great for learning where your training is working and where it is not.

              Map my ride is the app used and it has stats on each mile so the stat I used to compare the two efforts was the time for the first 3 miles.

              The last time I timed myself was on a nice summer day with a light pack and the time was 1:24:52.

              This time my time was 1:21:27. I had a heavy winter pack and the trail was icy and I had to slow down for that. Also I lost like 7 minutes looking for a good place to cross the first stream.

              The last 3 miles was done in 47 minutes yesterday and 64 minutes that last time.

              So I am definitely faster but the news gets better.

              As I climbed I was amazed that my quads, and hamstring and glutes felt strong and I could power up the steep spots like never before.

              Until my feet and ankles started to ache really bad. That is the weak spot.

              So that is new focus. Santa bought me a new jump rope for Christmas and I am hoping that will help.
              Leave No Trace! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXO1uY0MvmQ
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              • #42
                Talking as an older newbie. The most important concept for me in lifting is talked about the least.

                You can only do what you can recover from.

                Any idiot can tell you how to do one workout.

                It takes a genius to put them all together week after week so you recover from one before you do the next. Repetitive use problems over the long term must be considered.

                This is what I am considering these days.

                Obsessing over progressive overload has its limits...


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                • #43
                  Very true, all of that. Just like any other area, the only thing that counts is what you can actually do. I see this as very similar to the area of "saving for retirement." Many people obsess over interest rates and fees and other fine details, at the same time a large proportion of people simply aren't saving anything at all. So the first step is to get to the gym and do something (and of course don't get hurt doing it).

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                  • #44
                    Well it seems that Makwa and I decided to climb Five Mile Mountain. I forgot my map at home so I decided to just stay on the broken down trail and do the best I could. I got to a peak like place and thought I was done and turned around and 1/2 of a mile later ran into Makwa. It's cool to meet another person who is excited to be in a forest. Turns out I did not make it all the way.

                    Anyway, with tired legs from a killer workout done on Wednesday I climbed for 2 hours only stopping for a breath and to unwrap a granola bar here and there. It was cold for stopping so I ate as I walked. I got out in like an hour and a half including a 15 minute stop at the look out at Brown.

                    I mention this because I am really unbalanced between the power of my muscles above the knees and those below. Anyone reading should take note of this for their own workout plans.

                    Before lifting my quads, hamstrings and glutes would tire along with my calves and feet. Now they just go and my calves and feet suffer. I woke up in the middle of the night with a cramp in my calve. That is a first in my life. I have been running and hiking and riding bikes since 9th grade.

                    This is a problem that must be solved...
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                    • #45
                      The new theory here a Bunchberry Fitness is to spread out the use.

                      I am switching from relying on progressive overload on a few exercises to a series of different exercises that will challenge my muscles in different ways.

                      I have created 4 workouts and I will do 2 a week.

                      The individual exercises are done in pairs with 2 minutes and 30 seconds between them.
                      This gives you a nice 5 minute rest between the same lift. You only do 5 reps of a weight you could do 10 reps of. The single leg exercises are done in sets of 10 or 12.

                      Workout 1:
                      Back Squat/Overhead press
                      Dumb Bell Step Up /barbell row

                      Workout 2:
                      Deadlift/Pull up
                      Dumb Bell Step Down /bench press

                      Workout 3:
                      Front Squat / Overhead Press
                      Dumb Bell Walking Lunge /back extension

                      Workout 4:
                      Sumu Deadlift / Chin up
                      Dumb Bell Split Squat / Standing cable pull downs

                      I was worried about not going to max reps - how I would know when I could up my weight. This is not really a problem because you just know when your first set seems really easy you have to up the weight.

                      I have not done all the combinations yet so this may change.
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