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  • #16
    I'm still undecided about a permit system and both the size of the park and extensive number of trailheads and areas create large obstacles to feasability (not to mention staffing), but all the talk of permits had me reflecting on our experience out @ Arches. To hike in the Fiery Furnace section of the park you have to get a permit in person (nothing online), pay a small fee, make a reservation time window for starting the hike, watch a short 20 minute video about the area (description, hazards, regulations, and preservation efforts), and carry the permit attached to the outside of your pack. And if you were caught in the area without your permit, its a $500 fine per person. It was basically impossible to use the "I didn't know" excuse if you got caught in the wrong. Pretty extreme example, but it does help prevent damage to the area from heavy, uneducated, minimally regulated abuse.

    Comment


    • #17
      How about we construct secure turnstiles at each trailhead along with touchscreens. To allow every single person, they must watch a short instructional video and correctly answer the questions. Upon completion the turnstile allows 1 entry. And we can fence off the perimeter so nobody cheats and sneaks around. Then, we set up huge drones that fly over the peaks at night that detect illegal campers. These drones can throw nets over the criminals. Or shoot environmentally safe paint markers at them.




      I might be definitely kidding.

      Comment


      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        Don't forget the delousing and medical screening.

    • #18
      These are all interesting "if I were in charge" type ideas. But Albany will never do any of these things.

      >They can't get basic trail maintenance done that's years overdue, and they are wasting the few resources they have building a "trail to nowhere" at Cascade, and digging holes in a back road along Dudley Brook.
      >They can't build parking lots or bathrooms (the "tree cutting lawsuit" is just the latest excuse).
      >They can't hire Rangers or Front Country Stewards.

      There's no way they will "manage" any of these more complicated systems that people are discussing.

      The previous self issuing permit system was a laughable failure because **no part of it** was resourced after it was put in place. The overstuffed permit box that was never emptied, with litter all over the ground, was just the most visible part. You were, in fact required to carry the other part of the permit with you, keep it visible, etc. (all the features mentioned earlier in this thread). But no one ever, ever asked to see it. It was not resourced or enforced at all. And after a couple years, hikers just ignored it. (The sad permit boxes stayed in place for several years after that, until the state quietly removed them with no public announcement.)

      The state is wedded to the failed strategy of trying to control use by reducing safe parking. All this has accomplished is to push vast numbers of visitors into using more dangerous parking, as was predicted, and was obviously going to happen.

      And while Covid is certainly a concern right now, none of this management failure has anything to do with Covid. "Management" of this situation has been a failure for decades, and the failure reached a crescendo in 2019, long before anyone had ever heard of Covid. (But watch: "Covid" will be Albany's excuse for the next ten years of failure.)

      Comment


      • Hear the Footsteps
        Hear the Footsteps commented
        Editing a comment
        Originally posted by tcd View Post
        'they are wasting the few resources they have building a "trail to nowhere" at Cascade, and digging holes in a back road along Dudley Brook.'
        Eye roller, isn't it?

    • #19
      Regarding signs: There's a perspective here that I think the majority of the ADKHighPeaks community doesn't really get to see. I agree 100% that the signage needs to be improved but regarding their overall effectiveness- many signs aren't posted with the intent that they will prevent most issues. Rather, they are posted with the intent that they will streamline "after-the-fact" efforts at education, as well as even enforcement if and when that level of response becomes necessary.

      There's no shortage of state land users that will attempt to debate their way out of responsibility for a situation if and when a DEC employee catches them in violation of a regulation. A super common tactic employed to this end is for the violator to question "why isn't this regulation posted anywhere?" Having signs with the regulations (even in legalese and tiny print) posted at the trailheads especially nips this argument in the bud right away ("the regulation is posted and such and such location that you hiked right past")- it actually honestly makes a huge difference with regards to how much easier it is to get groups to come into compliance through education and firm direction (and even to issue citations should that level of response be necessary).

      Most of those signs that have the regulations printed in full legalese and tiny print weren't posted at trailheads by someone unaware of how much they suck- many were posted by seasoned, experienced DEC personnel who grew tired of the (frankly extensive) numbers of state land users who attempt to plead ignorance as if that somehow excuses those users from all responsibility of their violations- to the extent that when these users believe the state has failed in it's obligation to make the regulations available, they feel justified in ignoring directions to come into compliance even after the issue has been identified and explained. To be frank- these signs make the job indescribably easier for those DEC employees tasked with user interaction.

      Similarly, having the regulations posted on commercially produced maps (Nat Geo and the ADK maps) is super helpful to this end (even when this material is also in legalese). Maybe one in a hundred hikers ever actually proactively reads those boxes on the maps so it's not preventative by any means- but having the regulations printed there is a super helpful educational tool for DEC personnel as it is a resource that hikers can be directed to when they try to plead ignorance. Unfortunately, in the AllTrails era, fewer and fewer hikers are carrying paper maps with them these days...

      Comment


      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        I hate to kill the messenger so I apologize in advance... that's a huge cop out for not making trailhead signage better. What other law enforcement official has to deal with somebody pleading ignorance of a law or regulation? If I rob a bank I can't claim I didn't know it was illegal because a sign wasn't posted inside the bank that I shouldn't rob it. Wouldn't a simple trailhead sign suffice that says by setting foot on state land you agree to abide by all the rules and regs? That could be the disclaimer at the bottom of the type of signage I lobbied for above. Then show a URL or have QR code that links to the applicable state land use regs for the area that trailhead serves. Neat, simple, no mess, no excuses. Somebody really needs to clean it up. Looking at it solely from a business standpoint the trailhead signage is a giant marketing blunder. Standardize the look, messaging, and signage at every trailhead and more people may pay attention to it. If any DEC officials are reading this drop me a private message. I would happily take a job as point person for the project.

    • #20
      Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
      The big question is how does one compel hikers to do research like "Will I need a permit to hike/camp in the High Peaks?"
      I'd like to see Hiking and Camping skills as a mandated component of grade school physical education classes. My public high school gym classes had units on archery, bowling, golf, etc., so there's definitely room for a unit of outdoor skills. We even had a unit on orienteering so there's already components of outdoor skills that are an existing part of the curriculum. Such a unit would necessarily include topics such as the 10 essentials, fundamentals of leave no trace, basic map reading and backcountry navigation, basic trip planning, common public land regulations, and so on. Granted gym is a blow-off course for most high school students anyways so I wouldn't expect expert outdoorspeople as a result, but even if only a few things stick ("carry map, compass, and source of light on every hike," "you can't camp anywhere you want on public lands," "it's a good idea to double check the regulations prior to doing an overnight trip," etc.) I think we'd see some level of improvement over time as those high school students became adults.

      The ultimate effectiveness of such a mandate is certainly debatable to be sure... but lets be honest. When we had our golf unit in high school gym class, on rainy days we'd sit inside the gym and watch Happy Gilmore. At the worst, a unit on outdoor skills can't be a less productive use of time than that (as much as I love Happy Gilmore).

      Comment


      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        Great movie.

        And much like that movie, my high school gym class options were also relics of a bygone era. We got to learn biathlon (the optional live fire portion was after school, offsite).

      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        Our gym teachers in the late 70's/ early 80's were lazy. We got a steady diet of floor hockey, international handball (which was just an excuse to beat the living crap out of each other), and flag football. I used to crash gym classes during my free periods just to get in more floor hockey. Never once got kicked out though the teacher knew I wasn't suppose to be there.

        I have a close buddy who is a phys ed teacher. Over the past decade or so he has been mixing in more and more lifetime sports (swimming, golf, racket sports, bowling, etc) with the aim being that kids as they age into adulthood will continue to pursue and enjoy physical activity long after the skills and strength needed for many team sports have waned. I'll run the hiking/camping unit idea past him to see what he thinks.

    • #21
      I was just thinking about National Lampoon's Family Vacation. Maybe every trailhead needs a "Marty the Moose" with a motion sensor so it starts loudly rattling off regulations every a hiker passes it. It could look like Pete Fish so people will take it seriously. Or better yet Andrew Cuomo since there seems to be a connection to not knowing a goddamn thing about the ADK and believing every word he says. Cuomo statue, mechanically waiving arms, speaking in his cringey Cuomo accent: Look, there's no camping above thirty-five hundred feet. What's so hard about that? Stay a hundred and fifty feet or so from water, trails, and structures while camping, this isn't rocket science, people of NY. All you have to do is bury your sh1t. If I can do this, you can do this. If my daughter's boyfriend can pack a map and compass, you can pack a map and compass. No fires. Stop lighting stuff on fire...(JK, he hasn't said that once, even though he needs to).
      My mind was wandering like the wild geese in the west.

      Comment


      • Not_Built_For_Speed
        Not_Built_For_Speed commented
        Editing a comment
        Talking dummies that look like Prince Andy? They would get wrecked!! Lmao.

      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        Not bad. The Moose thing - not Cuomo though that is far more comical. Everybody still remembers Smokey Bear and his message. Short, sweet, simple, and memorable. You saw Smokey and you didn't even need to read what the sign said. His slogan was playing in your head the second you saw him. It is not so far fetched to have something similar for the Adirondacks.

      • Old Hunter
        Old Hunter commented
        Editing a comment
        Best post in awhile on any forum

    • #22
      Regarding comments previous that this should be a Physical Education (PE) topic.

      Big Mistake. This is not a PE subject!!!

      85 Acres in the Alpine zone in all of NY State. And apparently on the decline and suffering an attack of neglect on the part of some of it's citizens.
      • This is about NY State Heritage.
      • This is about Living Things Living on the Edge of Existence.
      • This is about Earth Science.
      • This is about Ornithology
      • This is about Botany.
      • This is about Extinction.

      It says something about our society that we digress to Sports as the avenue of education. Talk about about declining to the the very bottom of the barrel.
      Total B.S.

      Don

      P.S.
      I might have met this Steward last week. I climbed MGS. Spent 1/2 hour on Sklight...which I could do more.
      The steward told me about Fernald's Bluegrass. Look it up. Rare in NY State and only on Mt Marcy.
      There was a guy there now living in Connecticut, formerly Washington State. He mentioned a sign at Mt St. Helens. 'Grows by the Inch Dies by the Foot.' Fits in perfectly here.
      Last edited by Hear the Footsteps; 07-31-2020, 04:23 PM.

      Comment


      • gebby
        gebby commented
        Editing a comment
        I thought Makwa that Hear the Footsteps meant that this issue needed more serious treatment than could be given in gym class.

      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        gebby thanks. If I failed to read it that way then I apologize if my response was seen as being harsh. It was not intended that way but rather that all of the topics that were concern to Don could be part of a comprehensive curriculum and that hiking/camping as an avenue to teach those things could be valuable.

      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        Can't it be both? History, heritage, science, and LNT are great classroom subjects and should certainly be taught. That doesn't mean there's no value in outdoor life skills like land navigation, climbing, etc., that go hand in hand with leaving a smaller footprint on the outside world. What better place to learn them than PE class? People can have any opinion they want on "sports," but there's no reason to knock the idea of learning valuable outdoor skills as part of a curriculum designed to develop physical and mental wellness.

    • #23
      I sometimes wonder how these people act around their own household. Do they leave trash and food lying around their floors, or #2 next to the toilet and just leave it there for weeks? I see it here in PA. When I used to fish regularly I would get enraged to see trash littering the shores when 50 feet away was a garbage can, and 100 feet away was the parking lot. Hell, I even remember once when I was in college and standing at a bus stop. A bunch of soda and water bottles were lying within 5 feet of a trash can. I picked them up and put them in the can and the handful of other people there looked at me like I had two heads.

      Regarding signs, I was thinking maybe something like the old "Pedro says" billboards every 10 miles when driving I 95 south through North Carolina. Come up with an ADK mascot....maybe "Andy"? Andy ADK?

      Coming up the Van Ho from Marcy Dam.....every quarter mile....3 foot square signs that say things like, "Andy says, only one more mile of trail until you can no longer camp," or, "Andy says, absolutely NO campfires in this area, AT ALL. You will be fined and escorted out of the woods," or, "Andy says, No bear canister? Turn around and get one before you pay a fine that exceeds the cost of a new bear canister."

      Of course, that would all require backcountry enforcement. The rangers are understaffed and not utilized properly. I haven't come across one in the high peaks since 2009.

      I'm not trying to make light of the issue (and my apologies to anyone named "Andy"). I've not seen these kinds of things happen in person, but if I witnessed something like that I'd probably rip them a new one, and I'm usually not like that at all.

      Comment


      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm right there with you on the signage. Three years ago on the forum we were discussing increased usage at Indian Head. It was similar to this thread in regards to people not paying attention to the rules. My suggestion at the time was... "Maybe it's time to line Lake Road with Burma Shave-esque roadside signs outlining the rules. Nobody reads them at the trailhead. Meting them out in bite-size doses as you walk the road might get people reading them. I'm only half kidding here. Other than direct interaction with every hiker entering any property, wilderness, or wild forest how do you get people to read/know the rules? Some strategically located eyesores for the first few hundred yards of every major trail might be the solution. I know it goes against all the rules of wilderness but better that than all the damage being done by those hikers breaking the rules/regs. My two cents."

        And further down in that thread... "Yes... the Burma Shave reference is way before all of our times but the idea was a series of small roadside billboards that read sequentially to deliver the advertising message. Scroll down to "roadside billboards" here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma-Shave "

        I still think it's a decent idea if it could be incorporated in the ideas I proposed in post #15 above.

      • Groundpounder
        Groundpounder commented
        Editing a comment
        Now that you've mentioned it, I do remember those Burma Shave posts of yours! I was on the forum without being "on" the forum for well over a decade. I'm an introvert and I typically keep to myself, but I liked the community feel in here so I eventually joined up.

        I really don't understand the need for people to light fires anywhere and everywhere. Why? Even if you live in a city and only have a balcony, buy a small hibachi and have at it. If it's against the rules, feel even more "bad ass" for breaking those rules...at home...instead of creating a huge stain on a natural landscape. If people are camping in an illegal site AND lighting a fire, there is zero respect or knowledge of the regulations whatsoever. In my ADK infancy many years ago I twice camped in places I shouldn't have (posted on another thread, neither was a gross violation). It was wrong, but I/we didn't light fires or leave trash all over the place.

        The last trip ticket "receipt" I have is from 2006. Good to know that they had stopped being collected/reviewed years before then. It would have saved me 10 minutes at the trailhead!

    • #24
      Okay, if you're against permits, let's hear a solution. I have another. The 46ers should require a 45 minute LNT on line course and submission of the hiker's LNT certificate before your receive your 46er certificate. So that would capture Aspiring 46ers. But that doesn't catch the many people who are out there, not working on the 46. Not everyone in the Adirondacks is aspiring and not every egregious violation is occurring in the High Peaks. https://lnt.org/get-involved/trainin...reness-course/

      Comment


      • gebby
        gebby commented
        Editing a comment
        ILikeRocks not if their patch is dependent upon completion of the course!

      • tcd
        tcd commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm all for education. Education is one part of a comprehensive solution. Comments:

        >Education costs money. All the hiking challenges and groups can do a part, but for an effective program, the state needs to step up.

        >LNT is nice, but is too comprehensive and detailed to get traction with today's audience. People's eyes will glass over 10 minutes in. Better would be to focus on two or three short messages (as Tony has outlined here in the past), prioritizing the two or three things that will really reduce damage and reduce SAR calls.

        >Video's and classes are helpful, but there is no substitute for Front Country Stewards meeting people at the trail head, with a short, succinct message. "In-person" education really needs to be part of the program. Of course it's expensive; see point #1.

      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        tcd all valid points but I think we're at a point of thinking something is better than nothing and waiting for the state to do anything will put us in a holding pattern forever. NYS can't seem to wrap their arms or brains around a comprehensive plan and their only solution to date has been reducing parking and taking suggestions from outside groups that they then fail to act upon.

    • #25
      Thanks for the post about education. Good to see the conversation covering that topic. Education is one of the components of a comprehensive solution.

      You asked for the rest of the solution, over and above education, so here it is:

      >Adequate, safe, off-highway parking and reduced speed limits. Eliminate the "mixing" of hiking parties and 55mph traffic. Stop risking getting someone killed to continue stubbornly pursuing a failed strategy of trying to control use through inadequate parking.

      >Solid, permanent bathroom buildings, and the associated maintenance. Like you see at every USFS Site, and in many states. Many people will not use porto potties. Plenty of folks will avoid them. But in locations where there are decent bathrooms, compliance is much better.

      >Restore the Ranger staffing. Let the Rangers be Rangers ("ranging" in the woods), where they can reinforce education, enforce regulations, and be there to prevent SAR events. Stop making the Rangers serve as meter-maids.

      >Restore the State trail maintenance function, which has been whittled away for the last 20 years, as the state has discovered that they can walk away from this, and "volunteers" will pick up some of the slack. Volunteers can only do so much. To do big work requires paid crews and equipment (like helicopters) that only the state can provide.

      >Recognize the reality of today's use levels, and the nature of today's user population. Redesign and maintain trails to accommodate reality, not some fantasy rooted in the 1970s. This means a good, clear trail bed, a clear walkway, accommodations for the "challenging" sections, and adequate marking. The current "playbook" for trail maintenance is obsolete, and the results are obvious in the woods. (Just a few examples of this: 1. The "trail classification" system calls for some trails to be maintained leaving stuff in the way of the trail. Sure, you or I might step over that, but a big number of our current hikers will go around. 2. Imagining that people will "walk through the middle of the mud" is foolish. The reality is they go around. 3. Difficult rock scrambles that I might seek out and enjoy are serious obstacles for many of today's hikers. The reality is if there is no ladder, they go around.)

      All of these things cost money - a lot of money. As I mentioned elsewhere, to do all of this in the High Peaks Region will cost $100-150 Million. So while we hope for that to come, we all do the little pieces that we can.

      Comment


      • MTVhike
        MTVhike commented
        Editing a comment
        I like your comments, but wasn't the current work on the new Cascade trail partly in response to your last point?

      • tcd
        tcd commented
        Editing a comment
        It was, but they could have brought the existing Cascade trail up to the same level much more easily and with a far smaller investment of time and resources.

    • #26
      I'm not even sure if this is relevant to the topic but do you all think that people would pay closer attention to the rules and have more respect for the land they are hiking/camping on in the backcountry if the frontcountry was kept to the standards of a National Park or even a nice State Park? Adequate parking, nice facilities, visitor centers, consistent and well-kept signage like I been harping on in this thread, well-maintained trails, a larger Ranger staff that is more visible, etc. Like all of the things tcd was discussing in post #25. The ADKs has hundreds of trailheads so the task would be monumental but I wonder if outward appearance of how NYS maintains its resources has any effect on behavior once people set foot on it. Even something as simple as maintaining a register book at a trailhead speaks volumes. Some go months before new pages are added. The register boxes are full of stubby unsharpened pencils and pens that barely work, and full of lost and found items. That's one of the first things you see when you step on state land. Helluva first impression. Would people respect the land more if the state dressed it up so that it looked like something being worthy of respect? Or are people just animals and the worst offenders will ruin things whether it looks nice or not?

      Comment


      • gebby
        gebby commented
        Editing a comment
        It's all relevant and your comments Makwa fit the "broken window" theory(i.e. broken windows in a neighborhood that don't get repaired, promote more broken windows, etc..), so I can't argue that some people might think this way, when they find an underwhelming trailhead register, BUT, that does not excuse away their behavior IMO.

      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        I agree that it does not excuse bad behavior.

    • #27
      Originally posted by FlyFishingandBeer View Post
      If you support a fee-based permit system or any other restricted access permit system, you do not support racial/ethnic/economic diversity in a region that is already perceived as hard to access and unwelcoming to certain demographics, and there's no argument to be made against it. Choose your side, but you can't pick both.

      If you support a fee-based permit system then you are standing against the principals of state public lands. The mere suggestion to relinquish our access to our own public land spaces and place them under government controlled lock and key, with the option to temporarily purchase your Rights back as long as the Rights quota isn't full for that day is shocking.
      Sorry to FlyFishing and everyone else to respond directly to something so old in the chain. Your comments above have been bothering me. I recognize the issues you point out and I'm struggling with them.

      How do you feel about the NY State fishing and hunting license? Wouldn't that be the same issue? And what about fees for National Parks?

      If I support diversity for the region, that precludes my supporting financial measures for the region by the very people who use it? It seems quite democratic that users pay more than non-users....

      I'm also bothered by the notion that picking a fee permit system necessitates that I am completely unsupportive of diversity. I admit I'm not learned in what is presently being done to increase diversity; but I don't expect payments to individuals are being made to solve the problem. So I'm not certain that fee permits is the complete antithesis. Free days are mitigating policies that are used for fishing in the state and for visiting National Parks.

      As far as "principals of state public lands"; I'm just suggesting a way to increase necessary funding. I guess I don't know what the principals are. I do know the State doesn't exist without money. Sadly I have no suggestion for already high New York state taxes. Cut them and provide less services? Perhaps. Without additionally funding, I feel conversation about caring for the Adirondacks is moot. I guess one hopes the not-for-profit organizations can pick up more slack.

      FlyFishing, you genuinely pointed out something I had not considered, and I'm truly considering it. I hope you respond to my questions.
      Best,
      Mark


      Comment


      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        Check your inbox.

      • Mark
        Mark commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks first for advising me to check my inbox. I have lurked here over the years more than I have contributed, and don't login often. Thanks second for taking the time to elaborate on your stance and your feeling.

    • #28
      I believe that the entrance fees for National Parks don't go to that particular park, and, perhaps, not even to the NPS but just to the Treasury. Do the fishing and hunting fees in NY go to the DEC?
      Mike

      ADK 46r #8003; 6W
      2nd round: 16
      SL6r #596
      Catskill 3500 21/39; 11W

      Comment


      • tcd
        tcd commented
        Editing a comment
        "User fees" almost always go to the central government, and then into the deepest pocket. Just another tax.

        The only way that doesn't happen is if locals hold the government's feet to the fire, and demand an accounting of the fees, and demand to see what work was done with that money to improve the resource.

      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        tcd is right, especially in NYS. Its not *complete* doom and gloom though. Here's a surprisingly good article covering this exact topic from a media source that is typically passive-aggressively condescending about about anything even remotely close to this topic https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/59300...r-conservation

        Mark there's that theme of gov't accountability coming back around again. That's why I'm so critical of these "blame the hikers, not the gov't" green groups.

      • FoulHooked
        FoulHooked commented
        Editing a comment
        The NYS Conservation Fund is funded, held, and overseen separately from the general fund. All monies from sporting licenses, certain types of settlements, fines and leases, designated gifts/donations, trail supporter patches, etc., are required by law to go to the conservation fund and used for related conservation purposes. I don't think the funds can unilaterally be swept into the general fund, but i could be wrong. Any user fees that are imposed could/should be designated to the conservation fund as well, but it would likely take some diligence to make sure that happens appropriately.

        More info on the Conservation Fund, including a link to the relevant legislation: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/566.html

    • #29
      What about actual enforcement of the existing system of regulations before trying to create new ones? As Brendan alluded to above, policy makers actually discourage the issuance of citations by FRs and AFRs. Im sure they have some grand (and stupid) explanation for this practice, but its the exact opposite of what is needed. The "nice guy" approach is a complete and total failure. What would be much better in the current situation is draconian ticketing. No bear can? After you pay the 500 dollar fine you will probably remember to get one. Illegal camping? That will cost you 1000 bucks or a week in the county hotel. Your choice. Illegal campfire? $2500 or 30 days. Doing both? Sounds like a predicate offense situation. Double the penalties.

      There is no appetite for this sort of thing though. There is a palpable fear that proper enforcement of backcountry regs will result in economic consequences. The "logic" here being that people will get angry if they get ticketed and not return, or worse yet tell their friends not to come. Its a real special form of anti-logic being used here and like the good little soldiers they are the AFRs and FRs don't buck the system. An interesting experiment, for someone who is willing to find out, would be to see just how big of a dik you need to be before actually getting a ticket. Im willing to bet large sums that most of you here don't even have it in you to push that far. Therein lies the problem. Even most of those who absolutely deserve to be cited, aren't.

      Adopt a natural resource. Give back.

      Comment


      • Old Hunter
        Old Hunter commented
        Editing a comment
        Without enforcement and punishment laws and regulations are worthless. Even $100.00 fines would send the proper message.

      • Commissionpoint
        Commissionpoint commented
        Editing a comment
        Fines need to be significant enough that folks don't view them simply as a "fee" they can pay that allows them to behave as they like.

    • #30
      Well, we're a week into August and the corona money for non-essential workers should be drying up by now. Curious to see if the numbers of hikers in KV area start to decline. Would also love to see some data on how many people flooding into the area are _________ (shh! They're extremely sensitive) at the tail end of their 6-month publicly funded holiday. For our friends to the north, you'll be happy (or justifiably smug) to know that without your presence the full lots and roadside parking haven't changed an iota. Feel free to use that information on anyone who has accused Canadians of overcrowding the region. I'll continue to cheer for Montreal until they've successfully knocked Pittsburgh out of the Eastern Qualifying Round; all bets are off after that.
      My mind was wandering like the wild geese in the west.

      Comment


      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        ADKJack I could accurately be accused of a lot of things, but being racist or aporophobic aren't among them. No worries. It was a probably a bad joke anyway.

      • Groundpounder
        Groundpounder commented
        Editing a comment
        The Habs are going down! For the first time in 10 years, my Flyers look to actually have a deep team......AND a goalie

      • Groundpounder
        Groundpounder commented
        Editing a comment
        Wow...I just read the back-comments on this one. You being a vet, you know that there is only one color.....green. I'm not apologizing for others, but I'm sorry that your statement was misconstrued.

        Regarding the other stuff, I work for the state (PA). I'm the "end game" of my section (environmental enforcement). Since our inspectors aren't inspecting as often I mostly don't have much to do. However, I log on every single day at start time and stay near my PC at home until closing time. It was only within the last week that I realized the $600 I kept hearing about was for EACH WEEK. I would have pocketed more money to be laid off and collecting unemployment....with the benefit of being able to spend a week in the ADKs without using vacation time. However, I'm glad to not go through all of the frustration and unknowingness that comes with the unemployment system.
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