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  • Status of Mr. Van Ski Trail

    Does anyone know if any part of the Mr. Van Ski Trail has been closed or abandoned?

    I recently noticed someone modified OpenStreetMap's version of the Mr. Van Ski Trail. The section between the Van Hoevenberg Trail and the Marcy Dam Truck Trail was removed. In related notes, the map editor who removed it (adkbenb) claims to maintain the Adirondack Mountain Club's ski trails (but does not explain why this section was removed). I contacted the individual many days ago but have not received a reply.


    If that section of the ski trail has been abandoned then, as per OSM's best practices, you simply indicate its new status in its meta-data (i.e you tag it as being abandoned; you don't delete it). However, if the Club has closed this section of the trail and now wishes to discourage people from using it (so that it may revert to its wild state) then deleting it from OSM would be justified.

    I appreciate any information anyone has to offer about the ski trail's status.


    EDIT

    Upon closer inspection, I believe I understand what the person attempted to do. They changed that section from being a hiking and skiing trail to a skiing-only trail. That modification made it disappear from all hiking maps. They did the same thing to the Whales Tail Ski Trail and now it no longer appears on any OSM hiking maps.



    I would appreciate guidance from others on how to handle these two trails. They have always been shown on hiking maps because they are passable (or mostly passable) outside of winter. Removing visibility of the Whales Tail Ski Trail from hiking maps also caused a problem because its eastern end had campsites and now the map shows no trail to them.
    Last edited by Trail Boss; 01-12-2020, 05:26 PM.
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  • #2
    An interesting question about how to show trails where one use is preferable to other uses. The ADK High Peaks map shows the Mr. Van Trail between ADK Loj and the truck trail as "unmarked/minimum maintenance" to indicate that it may not receive a regular maintenance as other trail. We could add a note "no bridge" at the crossing of Marcy Brook to indicate there might be problems with that crossing. There are also frequent problems with beavers, so that, what might be skiable when the ponds are frozen, would not be suitable for hiking.
    The ADK High Peaks map still shows the Whales Tail Ski Trail as a "regular" trail, and one that would save 0.3 mi. between Marcy Dam and the Algonquin Trail. I am guessing that the Open Street Map editor, who wanted to show it for skiing only, was concerned that too much hiker traffic would cause erosion on the "unhardened" trail. Experience has been that not many actually do hike it, and the Guide discourages its use as a route between Marcy Dam and the Algonquin trail.
    So, how to show these trails on a map is far from clear, but I am open to suggestions. Any text "clarification" would need to be very short, but that is a possible addition to future maps.

    Comment


    • #3
      Tony, thank you for your insight.


      The concern I have with what this map editor did is that if one were to follow his lead, all ski trails would disappear from OSM's hiking maps (including the network of trails at the Olympic Ski Center). That's not beneficial for the average hiker. Encountering a trail, or trail-junction, where the map shows none only serves to convince the hiker their map is incomplete.

      There are situations where ski trails should not be shown on hiking maps. The best example is a ski route crossing a lake. Having that appear on a hiking map is silly. I have added ski trails running across Avalanche Lake, Lake Colden, and Flowed Lands, but they do not appear in OSM's hiking maps (only its ski maps).

      In OSM, a path's characteristics are described using tags (meta-data). So it's easy to specify if a trail's main purpose is for skiing but also supports hiking (or not). Some map publishers, that use OSM, can render the trails using different line styles or colors to identify its characteristics. Worst case, you add "Ski" to its name to make it plain for all to see. This is what was done for Whale's Tail Ski Trail, Mr. Van Ski Trail, Van Hoevenberg Ski Trail (the ski trail running alongside the hiking trail from approximately Phelps Brook to Indian Falls) and Avalanche Pass Ski Trail.

      If I don[t hear back from adkbenb by mid-week, with a convincing explanation for why the changes are an improvement, I intend to revert it all back to its previous state. In its current form, its less useful and more confusing.


      Only slightly related but does anyone know if DEC designated campsites were added at Scotts Pond and Wallface Ponds? Adkbenb added them but overlooked to indicate (in the meta-data) if the sites were official or not. Given how little traffic that trail sees, I'd be surprised the DEC established sites there. However, I have not hiked it in many years, so maybe I'm wrong.
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      Comment


      • #4
        Have you heard back from adkbenb yet?

        I agree with your concern and support you reverting the status of the Whales Tale Ski Trail and the Wright Peak Ski Trail.

        While adkbenb's tagging may have been technically correct at some level, skiers often have to use the hiking maps, because those are the maps that are available on our devices. Many of us use devices or apps on or devices that support maps published for hiking, but not ski maps. So the tagging sometimes need to be based on a pragmatic rationale. I'm out of state and my paper maps are not, but my recollection is that many of the paper maps do not show the ski trails.

        I like how you handled, for example, the Lake Colden crossing by changing the tagging so the part of the "Lake Colden Ski Trail" that traverses land shows on hiking maps but the part on water does not. Winter hikers intending to cross the frozen lake can see the trail leading to the lake on their devices' "hiking" maps.

        It's can be confusing to everyone, summer hikers, winter hikers, and skiers alike when the map shows three trails at a junction and there are four trails on the ground. (The junction just north of Lake Colden on some maps for example.) This is a reason to show ski trails on "hiking" maps. The hiker on the ground will see the ski trail between the trees, but if it's not on their map, they could be confused and might even think they are at a different junction.

        I'm all for being pragmatic and showing the ski trails on the hiking maps. Name them as ski trails. Strictly one could say this should be the decision of the map publishers, but we don't have all the choices of published maps we might desire, and devices and apps are often very limited in the maps they support.

        Yes, I know I have simply reiterated some of your points. But they are good points.


        On a related topic, I ran into another situation where there was a trail junction showing three trails on the map, but there were four trails on the ground. This is the junction of the Van Ho Trail and the Van Ho Ski Trail just south of the bridge crossing Phelps Brook. There is a fourth trail, a well-cut and apparently maintained side loop on the ski trail, that was not on OSM. I took one trace and added it. There was some minor evidence in the Strava Heat Map for it, but lots of skiers ski random track through the woods, so grain of salt and all that. I don't know the history or status of this side loop. It did not appear to be brushed in. Here's my changeset: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79739048 for your comments.



        Thanks,

        The other Tony.









        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that a case can be made to show ski trails so that all trails at a junction are shown. We have been very reluctant to show the Wright Peak Ski Trail as we don't want hikers going off the summit of Wright through the alpine vegetation to look for it as a descent route. The plan is to reroute the bottom of that trail so that it joins the Whales Tail Ski Trail while also ceasing maintenance of the long traverse to just under the summit. The question is whether hikers would appreciate from the map that the ski trail didn't come anywhere close to the summit and still try to use it for hiking. I'm also not sure whether we can effectively show the Lake Colden and Avalanche Pass ski trails effectively at the scale of the High Peaks map. But I agree we should at least revisit the issue.

          Comment


          • Teleskier
            Teleskier commented
            Editing a comment
            Just an aside to the main thread, but as a long time backcountry skier it saddens me to hear that about no longer maintaining the WPST to the summit. I guess backcountry skiers really are the poor stepchildren of outdoor users. Because I'm trying to imagine the reaction from the Adirondack Mountain Club and the hiking community if say, DEC announced that the hiker's spur trail to the summit of Wright would no longer be maintained. I imagine the lobbying and acitivism against that decision would begin yesterday.

          • tgoodwin
            tgoodwin commented
            Editing a comment
            Teleskier, cutting out that portion of the trail was seemingly the only way to get permission to cut a new finish to the Whales Tail Ski Trail. This new finish is a huge improvement because skiers will no longer have to compete with hikers heading for Wright and Algonquin. Ron Konowitz worked very hard to push this through, but even he had to realize the there is "no such thing as a free lunch" when it comes to dealing with the DEC and new trail construction.

          • Teleskier
            Teleskier commented
            Editing a comment
            If that's the bargain it took, it's a good one, for sure. But when I look at how long it's taken Ron (and others!) just to get guidelines for ski trails to the "almost approval" stage, it seems like forget about a free lunch, skiers are lucky just to get crumbs!

        • #6
          toeknee

          It's been over a week and I never received a reply from adkbenb. I will be reverting many of the changes adkbenb implemented. The ski trails will be re-tagged as also supporting hiking (thereby restoring their visibility in hiking maps).

          Adkbenb's decision to rename all unmarked trails from "Trail" to "Herd Path" is problematic:
          1. OSM disallows using information from copyrighted material yet adkbenb's changeset clearly states the decision was based on terminology found in the ADK Mtn Club's guidebook. The changeset's reversal could be justified on this basis alone.
          2. The DEC's information is permissible for use in OSM and it refers to (most of) them as trails, not herd paths.
          3. Identifying these well-used, lightly maintained trails (think of the one to Tabletop) as being herd paths will open a can of worms. Other map editors may believe it's now fair game to map real herd paths thereby attracting increased traffic to areas that can't support it.

          I believe adkbenb may have been trying to indicate the trail's characteristics in its name but that's the function of its tags. Years ago, when I first began updating OSM's ADK data, I encountered trail names that included the words "unmaintained" or their marker color. That's not how it's done in OSM; those characteristics belong as meta-data (tags) and not in the name.


          I agree with your statement: "tagging sometimes need to be based on a pragmatic rationale". Here's a case in point: yesterday I was contacted by another map editor who pointed out that, 2 years ago, I had used a deprecated tag to identify campsites along Meadows Lane. I no longer recall why I had used the tag ("camp_site=camp_pitch", it may not have been deprecated 2 years ago) but agreed to remove them. All other camping sites that I had entered were tagged as "tourism=camp_site".

          Now here's the issue: according to OSM's standards, a spot where you pitch a tent to camp is called a "camp_pitch" (tourism=camp_pitch) whereas a place where there are many places to camp (what North Americans would call a campground) is called a "camp_site" (tourism=camp_site). However, if you tag the spot as "camp_pitch" it will not be rendered on OSM's default map.

          I used tourism=camp_site to identify a single camping spot and it is rendered on OSM's maps. However, technically speaking, I labeled it a campground when it's actually just one tent site (camp_pitch). So if I were to comply with OSM's standards, the resulting map becomes far less useful to hikers and campers. I can live with the fact that the ladders and cables I added to OSM are not visible on its default map but hiding all camping sites is unacceptable.

          One of my motivations to get involved with OSM was to identify the location of all DEC designated campsites to benefit campers (I'm a day-hiker; the location of campsites isn't even important to me). Nevertheless, it was fun surveying all the campsites and I learned more about many nooks and crannies. To now make all those campsites disappear from the default map would be ... ridiculous.

          FWIW, adkbenb added three camp_pitch sites along the Wallface Ponds Trail. That was over a month ago and none of them are visible on OSM's default map nor the common maps based on OSM's data. It's as if map publishers haven't found the need to expose data tagged as "camp_pitch". In this particular situation, it may be good thing because I have my doubts those three sites are DEC designated campsites; I would appreciate confirmation from anyone that they are, or are not, designated sites.


          ---------------------
          Regarding your changeset, I'm unfamiliar with that bypass but if it's as you've described (appears to be intentionally cut and maintained) then it's worthy of inclusion. If you have any doubts, contact the 'gold standard' for High Peaks information: Tony Goodwin. He has has helped me sort things out several times.
          Last edited by Trail Boss; 01-20-2020, 11:10 AM.
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          Comment


          • #7
            I had always understood that there was at least 1 designated tent site at Wallface Ponds. Not sure about Scott Pond. The DECInfo Locator doesn't show any sites in this area but as we all know, even the "official" information isn't exactly always a definitive source in this regard (there's 1 or 2 designated tent sites south of Scott Clearing where the Wallface Ponds trail splits off from the Indian Pass trail, and that isn't shown either).

            In an area like this that gets such little use and attention, there's two equally plausible explanations behind any well-established site that is lacking the "Camp Here" disc despite being within 150 feet of any trails or water sources:
            • The site was established through use and was never designated- and hence is an illegal site
            • The site was designated but the "Camp Here" disc aged and eventually fell off the tree (the sun breaks the plastic down over time and eventually they fall apart), or it was stolen by a souvenir seeker (this is frustratingly more common than many realize), and no one from the DEC ever made the effort to trek back out there and replace it- and hence is a legal site
            Definitely makes it tricky to try to make for an accurate map. I agree generally speaking that it's best to leave the sites that don't have the "Camp Here" discs off the map unless someone reliable can verify that they did have a disc at one point in the not-too-terribly distant past. But the unfortunate consequence of this it that with an area like Wallface Ponds especially, it could very well be another decade (or longer) before someone from the DEC gets out there to clarify the situation.

            EDIT: I finally made an account for OpenStreetMap. With the editor access I see that the two sites at the start (lower end) of the Wallface Ponds Trail are shown, but both are listed with the "Camp_Pitch" attribute that prevents them from being listed. I know with certainty that at least one of these sites had a "Camp Here" disc when I hiked through this past summer (2019), but I'd have to look back on my records to remember which one. I didn't go up the Wallface Ponds trail on that trip, though.

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by DSettahr View Post
              ... I see that the two sites at the start (lower end) of the Wallface Ponds Trail are shown, but both are listed with the "Camp_Pitch" attribute that prevents them from being listed. I know with certainty that at least one of these sites had a "Camp Here" disc when I hiked through this past summer (2019), but I'd have to look back on my records to remember which one. I didn't go up the Wallface Ponds trail on that trip, though.
              FWIW, the OSM map had a marked campsite at that location (just southeast of the old dam). I added it to OSM a few years ago after surveying the area (it had a DEC marker at the time). Unfortunately, adkbenb deleted it (why? I don't know) and then created a new one tagged as tourism=camp_pitch (which fails to render on the map). The location of the site I had marked was here (you can still see the side-trail leading to it):
              https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=...5354/-74.01576

              The other site was right next to the dam just before the crossing of Indian Pass brook. I always thought it was too darn close to the trail but it had a DEC marker so I added it to the map (but that's no longer visible either).

              The sites adkbenb added next to Scott Pond and Wallface Ponds came as a surprise to me. I mean it's possible the DEC added official sites there ... but given how stretched they are for resources, I doubt that they had the time to create/mark new campsites along this low-traffic trail. My gut says adkbenb saw some unmarked ad hoc campsites and chose to include them in OSM (can't know for sure because I never received a reply). I'm in no rush to delete them because they're not visible on the map anyway.

              Do you have any information about this site?
              https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5943450456

              I inspected it last summer and found no evidence of a DEC Camp Here marker (nor a No Campfires marker). For a non-designated site, it's much too close to both the stream and the trail (<20 feet from each one). However, it has a surface of packed pebbles and sand whose perimeter is reinforced with buried logs. It gives the impression of being a purpose-built campsite but it has zero markers (at the time I inspected it). I went to the caretaker's cabin to inquire about it but no one was home. I left it on the map (figuring it was possibly a site under construction) and intended to return at a later date to confirm its status (unfortunately, I never found time to return to the High Peaks).
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              • #9
                Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post

                FWIW, the OSM map had a marked campsite at that location (just southeast of the old dam). I added it to OSM a few years ago after surveying the area (it had a DEC marker at the time). Unfortunately, adkbenb deleted it (why? I don't know) and then created a new one tagged as tourism=camp_pitch (which fails to render on the map). The location of the site I had marked was here (you can still see the side-trail leading to it):
                https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=...5354/-74.01576

                The other site was right next to the dam just before the crossing of Indian Pass brook. I always thought it was too darn close to the trail but it had a DEC marker so I added it to the map (but that's no longer visible either).

                The sites adkbenb added next to Scott Pond and Wallface Ponds came as a surprise to me. I mean it's possible the DEC added official sites there ... but given how stretched they are for resources, I doubt that they had the time to create/mark new campsites along this low-traffic trail. My gut says adkbenb saw some unmarked ad hoc campsites and chose to include them in OSM (can't know for sure because I never received a reply). I'm in no rush to delete them because they're not visible on the map anyway.
                Yeah, I agree- the one site is weirdly close to the trail. As in, the trail goes right through the middle of it. In any case that area gets so little use that you could probably camp there for several nights and not likely have anyone pass by who needed to hike through. It's a nice spot for a tent site otherwise- it wouldn't take much work to re-route the trail around it. If my memory is correct, it's this site that had a "Camp Here" disc this summer- the other site further west and south was missing the "Camp Here" disc but it seemed fairly apparent that this was more a factor of the disc having gone missing rather than the DEC having tried to close the site down. My (admittedly very hazy) memory from my first visit to the area in 2013 was that both sites had "Camp Here" discs then.

                Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                Do you have any information about this site?
                https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5943450456

                I inspected it last summer and found no evidence of a DEC Camp Here marker (nor a No Campfires marker). For a non-designated site, it's much too close to both the stream and the trail (<20 feet from each one). However, it has a surface of packed pebbles and sand whose perimeter is reinforced with buried logs. It gives the impression of being a purpose-built campsite but it has zero markers (at the time I inspected it). I went to the caretaker's cabin to inquire about it but no one was home. I left it on the map (figuring it was possibly a site under construction) and intended to return at a later date to confirm its status (unfortunately, I never found time to return to the High Peaks).
                Yes, that is intended to be (or at least eventually become) a designated site. There's actually a number of new sites like that, in various stages of construction, located along the truck trail north of Marcy Dam- with more planned for the near future. The goal is to try to spread the Marcy Dam sites out a little bit more by constructing new sites located along periphery trails, and closing down some of the existing sites clustered around the dam. By doing this, there won't be nearly as many designated tent sites piled right on top of each other in the immediate vicinity of the dam (but the same number of overall sites should still be available for use). I can't remember if any of the new sites had "Camp Here" discs yet when I went through in the fall- but as you noted, they were very obviously "official."

                There is also a new trail (half built) that follows the east side of Phelps Brook, connecting the Marcy Dam Truck Trail with the VanHoevenberg Trail and circumventing Marcy Dam entirely. The new Phelps Brook Lean-to (already finished) is located on this trail (and I think there's a couple of new tent sites located on it as well, again in various states of construction). The route of this trail is very approximately drawn in on this screenshot of the Open Street Map.

                There's also a relatively new re-route of the VanHoevenberg/Marcy Dam trail, just north of Marcy Dam, that I don't think is reflected on OSM. And Secret Squirrel is missing- the herd path that crosses Marcy Brook some distance downstream of Marcy Dam and is used by DEC and ADK employees to avoid the last few PUDs on the VanHoevenberg Trail (although as this is a very non-official trail, I'm not sure it's really necessary to include it).

                Marcy Dam Lean-to #4 has also been removed (but is still shown on OSM). The Hudowalski, Marcy Dam #2, and Marcy Dam #5 lean-tos are the only lean-tos still in existence at Marcy Dam.
                Last edited by DSettahr; 01-26-2020, 09:19 PM.

                Comment


                • #10
                  I'll fix the two campsites near Indian Pass Brook and leave the campsite along the Marcy Dam Truck Trail as-is.

                  I visited in June 2019 and surveyed the entire area around Marcy Dam (revisiting every campsite that I had surveyed ~2 years earlier). I collected a mountain of data but, given my waning interest in the High Peaks and hiking, I never got around to adding it to OSM.

                  I noticed #4 was gone. I also noticed signs along Whales Tail Ski Trail warning people to keep out because it was (and I'm probably misquoting this) "a bear preservation area". I was going to inquire about the signs because, if heeded, they keep you away from several designated campsites along that trail (and all of them had markers in June). Maybe the goal is to decommission these campsites.

                  I recorded GPS data for the new Phelps Brook Lean-to, the new campsites in the vicinity of the lean-to (near Phelps Brook) and the new trail that runs along the east side of Phelps Brook, from the Truck Trail to Van Hoevenberg, serving to bypass Marcy Dam (and have photos of the lean-to and campsites).

                  As I recall, the new trail to the lean-to is well-engineered and self-evident. The trail running south from the lean-to was self-evident for a short stretch up to a wet area (with stones to cross it) and then petered out; only some scuffing and flagging marked the balance of the trail which emerged (more or less) near the designated campsite near the footbridge. On Strava Heatmap, the northern end of the trail leading to the lean-to has a few tracks but the balance shows only one or two. I imagine this new trail will get more traffic when it's finished.

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Annotation 2020-01-27 103648.png Views:	0 Size:	32.4 KB ID:	503784

                  If there are more campsites that have been constructed along the Truck Trail, I failed to see them. I'll have to pay a visit next summer.

                  As for the squirrel crossing (visible in the Heatmap), I've used it a few times but chose to exclude it from OSM. If the DEC ever marks it then I'll add it to the map.


                  Regarding:
                  new re-route of the VanHoevenberg/Marcy Dam trail, just north of Marcy Dam
                  The re-route I know of is the one performed about 2+ years ago. A portion was relocated away from the brook and over to the west. You can see that in the Heatmap above; the purple line paralleling the dark-blue line is the old route. The trail shown on OSM follows the relocated route (see my OSM changeset of Nov 2017: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/508233787)
                  .

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Annotation 2020-01-27 110425.png Views:	0 Size:	79.8 KB ID:	503785




                  Or are you referring to yet another, more recent, trail re-routing?
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                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Trail Boss Thanks, I'll reach out to Tony Goodwin via PM.

                    On another note, the other week I noticed that the XC ski trails at the Cascade XC Center had disappeared. I looked at the history for one of the trails, and saw that adkbenb added it without the "highway:path" tag. I looked at the XC trails at the Mt Van Ho XC Center, which are visible on OSM, and they all had the "highway:path" tag. So I added "highway:path" to all the Cascade XC trails. And now they are visible again.

                    Unfortunately, I didn't look at the history on all of the trails before I made the change. But I did afterwards when I realized I skipped a step. I found that adkbenb had removed that tag from trails that someone else had created. I sent him a message on OSM about this...I don't want to start an edit war.

                    Did you ever hear back from him about the Wright Peak and Whales Tale ski trails?

                    We could have a whole section in this forum devoted to OSM maintenance....

                    Tony.


                    EDIT TO ADD: Tony G. told me that side loop has been there since at least 1967 and that he led an ASTC group to maintain it a few years back.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      I never heard back from adkbenb. Whoever this person is, they should limit their contributions to adding new material and leave existing data untouched.

                      adkbenb has also changed the trail_visibility tag on many unmarked trails. Tabletop Trail got demoted to "bad" which is absurd because the trail's start has a sign and the entire trail is self-evident even after a snowfall. I had brought this to his/her attention and never received a reply to that either.

                      Feel free to correct anything you believe adkbenb has damaged. The only contribution that appears to be sound is the addition of the private ski trails on ADK Mtn Club's Heart Lake property. All the other alterations appear to be the product of a limited understanding of how OSM's data is used to create maps.

                      Regarding: "don't want to start an edit war"
                      If an OSM map editor makes questionable contributions and then fails to respond to inquiries, I feel it's fair to correct them without their input. The individual may have had only had a passing interest, made some flawed additions/modifications, and is never heard from again. Someone has to step in and correct the mistakes.
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                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Trail Boss I've been looking at how various map sources in GPS hiking phone apps use the OSM data to create maps. There is a wide variety of what is on and what is not on the various map sources, and thus what is displayed in the different apps.

                        I was a fan of straight OSM rendering, like one sees at openstreetmap.com. And the fact that adkbenb's changes made the Wright Peak and Whales Tail trails disappear from openstreetmap.com definitely bothered me.

                        On the flip side, the hiking apps (Gaia, AllTrails, View Ranger, etc.) provide a choice of map sources. Many of them are different renderings of OSM data from third parties such as Thunderforest and Map Box. And many of those map sources do display the ski trails, and, bonus, render the ski trails differently than hiking trails.

                        Anyway, I'm just going to leave adkbenb's tagging for now. If a user of an app wants to see the ski trails, they can chose a map source for their app that shows the ski trails. If people only look at one map (paper or electronic) and are surprised that the one map they have doesn't show everything, then perhaps that's a learning opportunity for them. It's always interesting to me what shows on one map and what does not. For example, the new "half built" trail from the Marcy Dam Truck Trail to the Van Hovenberg trail that DSettahr mentioned above is on the paper 2019 ADK High Peaks Trail Map. I hadn't noticed until I re-read this whole thread.

                        I would be happy to sit down with a couple folks some day and decide on the exact way we want to tag the ski trails, and then help retag them. Maybe it's ok if the ski trails don't show on openstreetmap.com (and close derivatives) because they do show on so many other derivatives of OSM data.


                        For example:
                        1. The Gaia app has a map source called "MapBox Outdoors HD" which it apparently licenses from MapBox. It renders ski trails in gray (or white outlined in gray) and hiking trails in yellow. You can go to mapbox.com and see it. (Or you can see it in the app of course.)
                        2. Gaia also has a map source called "Outdoors" which it apparently licenses from Thunderforest. It shows hiking trails in blue and ski trails in red (except the Wright Peak trail, it's gray, the tags are different). You can go to Thunderforest.com and see this.
                        3. Gaia has another map source, "Gaia Topo", which it has apparently customized for its app. I've been using this recently, as it shows the slides, cliffs, leantos outhouses, camp sites, etc. that are in the OSM data.
                        4. The View Ranger app has a map source called "Outdoors", which appears to be the Thunderforest "Outdoors" map as Gaia uses.
                        Those are the only two phone hiking apps I use with any regularity. I fired up All Trails, as that's a popular app, and its default map does NOT show the ski trails adkbenb retagged. I don't have an All Trails account so did not check the other map sources in that app.



                        Tony.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Question about the relocated Marcy Dam trail: The old trail is shown as red on my attached map, GPS in 2007. After Irene, we used to follow the same trail to a left turn over the brook below the dam, but now you have to go all the way to the dam and back. My more recent GPS is in blue. Why was this relocation made?

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	MarcyDamArea.jpg
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ID:	507335
                          Mike

                          ADK 46r #8003; 6W
                          2nd round: 16
                          SL6r #596
                          Catskill 3500 21/39; 11W

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            toeknee

                            If a trail is exclusively for skiing then I agree with you that it should be tagged accordingly and, as a result, it will not be displayed in OSM's default map, which I believe is called Standard Tile map or OSM Carto. It will appear exclusively on maps that renders ski trails.

                            For example, this link to opensnowmap.org shows the ski trails I drew across Avalanche Lake and Lake Colden. Obviously we wouldn't want those to appear on Standard Tile. In addition, the dual-purpose Van Hoevenberg, Avalanche Pass, and Calamity Brook trails all show that they are ski trails and part of a relation that runs from ADK Loj to Upper Works.
                            http://www.opensnowmap.org/?zoom=16&...e&marker=false

                            The same is true for the Van Hoevenberg Trail to the summit of Marcy. However, don't ask me why they now have "question mark" icons. They weren't there when I tagged them so perhaps someone changed the tagging since then.
                            http://www.opensnowmap.org/?zoom=16&...e&marker=false

                            If we want consistency then there's a portion of the Avalanche Pass Ski Trail that doesn't coincide with the Avalanche Pass Foot Trail and its tagging should be altered so that it no longer appears on Standard Tile. However, if you want to really stick with this policy then you also should change the tagging of all the ski trails in the Olympic Ski park:
                            https://www.openstreetmap.org/query?....2132/-73.9010
                            Having revised all of them using Strava Heatmap, I can guarantee you that if you're looking for tedious work, this one is hard to beat.

                            FWIW, I have GPS data for the "Marcy Dam bypass" trail (or whatever it will eventually be called) and I've been sitting on it for year and haven't entered it into OSM yet. I guess that speaks volumes about where my interests lie now.

                            PS
                            The person responsible for many unwarranted alterations (prominently labeling unmarked trails as "Herd Paths" and upgrading the difficulty and downgrading the visibility of trails that no one with any experience would justify) never ever replied so feel free to undo anything meritless they did.
                            Looking for Views!

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