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Rt. 73/Ausable Club parking

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bunchberry View Post

    It benefits the Ausable club.
    In what way?

    Comment


    • Bunchberry
      Bunchberry commented
      Editing a comment
      Who wants a bunch of poor people traipsing onto your club and clogging up your trails and causing erosion?

    • gebby
      gebby commented
      Editing a comment
      I think it's naïve to think that the Ausable Club, via the Adirondack Council does not have access to state politicians and can lobby on their behalf, unlike the average John Q. Hiker and that they didn't like all the cars parked around their club. Now they have unfettered access to their club and don't need to see the hordes of the great unwashed on the way in to their club. They look upon the hikers as a threat to the Adirondacks equivalent to the old tyme logger barons of the days of yore, when the club was formed. My opinion.

  • #17
    The second lot at AC wasn't taped off at 6:45am on Sunday... But, evidently it was on Saturday and that may be the new norm now as well...

    https://mobile.twitter.com/andyjulow...​​

    Again, this is not about "pedestrian safety."

    Comment


    • gebby
      gebby commented
      Editing a comment
      If they hold fast to the easement, they are required to provide 24 spots in the parking lot I think. If they start enforcing that, yikes.

    • Makwa
      Makwa commented
      Editing a comment
      20 actually. Unless that's been amended since the deed filed in 1978.

    • gebby
      gebby commented
      Editing a comment
      I knew you had the data Makwa! Thanks for chiming in!

  • #18
    Originally posted by Neil View Post
    I understand that the lines of cars parked along the shoulders of various roads have led to this reaction. However, I can't help but ask myself the question (that AFAIK, no one has yet to ask): what is so bad about those cars lining the roads? A sign of overuse of the trail system? Dangerous situation? Looks bad?

    I understand the long-term solution to the perceived problem along 73 will be to construct large parking lots at Dysfunction junction, Rooster Comb and Marcy Field and to run shuttles.

    In the meanwhile it will be interesting to watch this play out.
    I believe I've only seen it reported as a "dangerous situation" for pedestrians (and possibly an inconvenience for residents in Keene proper).

    The thing is, I've never seen or heard any reports of car/pedestrian incidents. It could just be that they're not reported in the media if they're not serious/fatal. Or it could be that they don't exist, which would be kind of hard to believe.

    Comment


    • #19
      I attempted to hike Nippletop on Saturday. Arrived at 7:50am to a completely full lot and tons of inconsiderate hikers all in the road acting like they own the place. Cars parked all along the road in clear view of no parking signs. Ended up having to trek all the way back down to Newcomb and climbed Adams. I cant lie, Adams was ammmmazing and the firetower is sooooo nice. Id never been to that lot before so it was cool to have been relocated. I always hike on off days so this was literally the first time in 3 years Ive had to deal with it. Its a zoo up there. Im dead set against a permit system but who knows. I think theres something a bit disheartening about native NY'ers not even being able to recreate in their backyards because its full of tourists. And lets be honest here. A lot of these hikers are contributing nothing to area economically so people can save the tourism pitch. Many come, take up all the space, never spend a dime, leave trash and disrespect the area. Ill never hike on a prime weekend day again. Its a real bummer. Luckily I follow the rules, have knowledge and was able to salvage the day. Adams was so cool though and I got my first real looks at the Santanonni Range and Allen. Must of been fate.

      Comment


      • ndru
        ndru commented
        Editing a comment
        Good call and way to salvage the day! Adams is amazing and the views from that fire tower rival anything in the high peaks!

      • Makwa
        Makwa commented
        Editing a comment
        It's among my Top 10 favorite views and #1 on the fire tower list.

      • FlyFishingandBeer
        FlyFishingandBeer commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm not sure that's completely accurate. Anyone traveling to the area from another state or another part of NYS would be pretty hard pressed not to contribute to the local economy at all. Chances are that gas, food, and possibly lodging are involved for people coming in from 3-4+ hours away. And yes, there are some folks who come in and abuse the amenities by littering doing other uncouth things, but these people are far from the norm and the High Peaks region is much cleaner overall than many other places in the state where people recreate outdoors. I also seem to remember reading some statistic (albeit, I don't know how it was gathered) that less than 20% of northern ADK hikers, climbers, and backpackers are true "tourists."

        I feel your frustration. I'm sure most of us do. But as Upstate NY'rs most of us already have the option to enjoy the ADK on non-prime days. Many of us prefer to burn a day of PTO for some extra solitude rather than deal with weekend warriors, but that doesn't mean the people who come here only on weekends are wrong for it just because there's a lot of them.

        Edit: Thanks for clarifying that stat Makwa

    • #20
      I agree with Neil and others that I personally never saw anything terribly wrong with lines of cars parked near trailheads. As long as the parked cars weren't blocking driveways, or otherwise getting in the way, it was up to the hikers to stay out of the way of the vehicles on the highway. These "additional" hikers did not cause trail erosion/widening, and I have pointed out many times that the trails are in generally better shape now than they were 50 years ago. Yes, one will encounter some litter , but again it's way less than one found on the trails 50 years ago. And thanks to those who pick it up.

      Hikers on the highway at trailheads are certainly perceived as a safety hazard, and I am aware of two fatalities (in the past 20 years) of hikers at the Ampersand and the Round Pond/Dix trailheads. But as was pointed out, how many fatalities have there been on the trails in the High Peaks compared to these two?

      So my OP was just to report on what hikers should know about coming to hike this summer. I certainly agree that the DEC should have thought of how to mitigate these restrictions before banning parking on these sections of highway.

      Comment


      • #21
        Originally posted by salt View Post
        I think theres something a bit disheartening about native NY'ers not even being able to recreate in their backyards because its full of tourists. And lets be honest here. A lot of these hikers are contributing nothing to area economically so people can save the tourism pitch. Many come, take up all the space, never spend a dime, leave trash and disrespect the area. Ill never hike on a prime weekend day again. Its a real bummer. Luckily I follow the rules, have knowledge and was able to salvage the day. Adams was so cool though and I got my first real looks at the Santanonni Range and Allen. Must of been fate.
        Bull****! Most of these "tourists" ARE native NYers in their own backyard; Albany, Glens Falls, Syracuse, etc. Many of them DO spend money. Check out the Noonmark Diner or Ausable Inn after a w/e hike. The Mountaineer does a nice business from hikers. These people get gas at Stewarts. Many are not recognized as hikers (hunters look like hunters) as we often change out clothes at a TH before heading to dinner. Take away the hiker money and you'll see just what they contribute! You won't notice until it's gone. You should travel to other parts of the park and look at the trash in the backcountry. The High Peaks is probably the cleanest of all.

        Comment


        • salt
          salt commented
          Editing a comment
          Easy killer. Almost none (2 or 3) NY plates that day at AMR, Roostercomb, Round Pond, Dix and Upper Works. I saw personally at least 50 out of state plates parked completely illegally in a span of a half hour that morning. Not to mention, when driving out of said lots people cant even have the decency to move out of the way for a passing 2mph car. I wont entertain anymore back and forth and profanity with ya on this one. Agree to disagree.

        • Makwa
          Makwa commented
          Editing a comment
          Interesting anecdotal evidence. I wonder if all the NYS residents have heard about the parking restrictions and are already staying clear of those trailheads but out-of-staters who were blissfully unaware just came and took all the parking spots. Will be curious to hear other reports on the mix of people in the coming weeks. I wonder if it will change?

        • tumbleweed
          tumbleweed commented
          Editing a comment
          I don't think being a native NYer or not has anything to do with it. EVERYONE has a right to open public space anywhere in the country. If I go to Yellowstone, I shouldn't feel like I'm imposing on foreign turf. Someone from Vermont, Canada, or Indonesia shouldn't feel unwanted.

          As far as people on foot being inconsiderate to someone trying to get through with their car, I've seen this far too often. The worst I've encountered is a group of 4 in the Roaring Brook parking lot having a picnic in a parking spot. THE LAST PARKING SPOT! I stopped my truck and sat there for a good minute or 2 of me looking at them, and them looking at me. Finally, I got out of my truck and asked nicely if they could relocate. They did, but not without an attitude. You can't fix stupid.

      • #22
        Wait, just want to clarify something from a post above,
        so not only all this about the no parking on the side of the roads and its enforcement, but the area available for hikers to park at the st huberts lot for amr valley access is shrinking now too? For real?
        And if there has been an actual plan for number of cars parked in the easement, it has been that they have been lax with it but now they are going to start enforcing that?
        "Only those who risk going too far can possibly know how far one can go"
        T.S. Eliot

        Comment


        • gebby
          gebby commented
          Editing a comment
          bikerhiker Sure. BUT that lot is on private property. None of the benefits of any dollars would be shared with the state. I agree on paying not being a big deal to me either. Educating hikers is a great idea. If you are a 46er, consider becoming a TH steward or join up when you finish and help with that cause or do it with the ADK at the HPIC as they have stewards as well.

        • FoulHooked
          FoulHooked commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm no lawyer, but might there be a case for a prescriptive easement on the additional parking?

        • ndru
          ndru commented
          Editing a comment
          I am 100% all for expanded, state-run pay lots and shuttles akin to the ones you see at busy National Parks. I have zero problems paying for a safe, guaranteed parking spot, especially if that money can be put back into the trails and rangers.

      • #23
        All the parking tickets will help fund the advertising campaign! Yay!
        ADK 46/46W + MacNaughton, Grid 269/552
        Photos & Stuff

        Comment


        • #24
          Ok this is really insane now. And its only June bug/mud season. I can not imagine this summer starting with the July 4th holiday. Do we know who, or which state dept, ultimately decided to mark the parking spots on 73, put up the signs, and authorized the Rangers and NYS Police to ticket? Is this all DEC driven? Certainly direction comes from above, but who's decision was this? Who does the revolt get directed to?

          I feel it not only for the out-of-state/country folks getting fined and the hassles of parking, but for the local businesses and reputation of the area. This is Serious.

          Comment


          • gebby
            gebby commented
            Editing a comment
            The only way this changes is if the townships of Keene, Keene Valley, Lake Placid see a fall off in tourism and loss of $$ and clamor to the state that they are suffering. The powers that be are banging the gong of overuse as the cause of all that ails the Adirondacks, especially the High Peaks and they are limiting the parking to limit the use or spread the use around.

          • ndru
            ndru commented
            Editing a comment
            I feel like nobody is actually listening to residents of these communities either, as several of them post here and seem to have infinitely more common sense than the state of NY.

        • #25
          Do we really know the true intent? Is it to prevent injury/death on 73? Or is it to limit use of the HP areas?

          Comment


          • gebby
            gebby commented
            Editing a comment
            What do you think? Safety is touted as the reason, but dropping the speed limit was never considered, something that would also increase safety. If you read through this thread, apparently two road deaths have occurred on the roads in the Adirondacks. Many more deaths have occurred on the trails than on the roads. It is clearly to limit access to the High Peaks accessible from these particular trailheads.
            Last edited by gebby; 06-13-2019, 09:41 AM.

        • #26
          I believe there is opposition to dropping the speed limit due to 73 (and 9) being some of the few major trucking routes in the region.

          Comment


          • FlyFishingandBeer
            FlyFishingandBeer commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes, trucking and commuting in general. There's a logic, which people can agree with or not, that simply because the roads are lined with cars on most peak season Saturdays, locals and other commuters shouldn't be "punished" with reduced speeds for the other 6 days per week, during the other 7 months out of the year.

          • gebby
            gebby commented
            Editing a comment
            Speed limit is dropped in Keene and Keene Valley to 35. If the interest is safety, as has been suggested, can't argue that for small stretches of road, a mile or two, dropping it to 35 makes the area safer. But it is not about safety.

          • Makwa
            Makwa commented
            Editing a comment
            Why not have the flashing light kinda speed limit things you see around schools? 55 MPH all year long but 35 when the lights are flashing (presumably only on weekends from Memorial Day to Columbus Day).

            EDIT: oh... I now see that has already been suggested below in post #27.

        • #27
          Reduced speeds "while flashing" using the lights that many schools districts use during transportation hours only. There, took care of the "punished" argument. Remind me, why is the reason to limit hikers along that stretch of the high peaks? During completion of 46 very rarely found garbage or people off trail. Is this more perceived, or happens on Cascade, than reality? Yes you get the keg on Phelps, but really do not see garbage on the heavily, or lightly, trafficed trails. Sides of roads are different stories with beer cans and cigs, not the trails.

          Comment


          • ndru
            ndru commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah, I have rarely seen much garbage/litter in the high peaks. Much more so in the lower elevations (where it's easier to drag in coolers and heavier camping equipment).

            Good point on the speed limits. Common sense often eludes NYS though. As we've seen.

          • FlyFishingandBeer
            FlyFishingandBeer commented
            Editing a comment
            The "while flashing" speed zone signs have been suggested multiple times. The more that this overall debate goes on, the more it seems to be about control and less about safety or conservation.

          • MTVhike
            MTVhike commented
            Editing a comment
            I believe there are many flashing speed limit signs: on the way into Keene, Keene Valley, Elizabethtown, Lake Placid, Lewis, .... In some cases the reduced speed isn't very low (e.g.45), but they are effective (at least for me). They should be put up as you're approaching Chapel Pond and other high-use trailheads.

        • #28
          Hi Gebby, thanks for the references. I live in the ADKs, SW area, completed the 46 in 2017, S6 and firetowers in 2018, and just about to complete the Adk Quest of 50 days in different Wilderness and Wild Forest areas. Peakbag? yes, I enjoy these challenges. Experienced other areas of the ADKs? Yes, much more than the High Peaks. Agree these sources referenced talk and publish and scream overuse. Yes we need a parking solution. I am just saying what is being published, especially from non-scientific surveys from the Adk Council, does not represent what I have and am experiencing on the group (except Cascade). We are not seeing proven overuse damage from the ADK and 46ers compared to decades ago, except maybe Cascade, and a few incidences. More rangers, more education, more summit stewards, more trailhead stewards, allow more visitors, and everyone wins.

          Fortunately exploring the White Mountains over the next couple of years and will be able to stay away from Keene and KV until this works itself out. Which is too bad. Love Keene Valley for lodging and restaurants. Lake Placid will never be impacted by these fines, however KV will see this negative impact sooner rather than later. Until then, we all suffer.

          Comment


        • #29
          Good article. Quote in article from President of ADK, immediately after discussion on the driver of these concerns being Safety, not overuse:

          “Because of overuse, water quality and wildlife habitat are threatened,” Janeway told the News in an email. “Roadside parking spills out of overflowing trailhead lots and causes a public safety problem along Route 73 and other local highways. Crowds may discourage people who expected more solitude to go to another park. Overuse degrades the very Adirondack Wilderness the state is responsible for preserving for current and future generations as ‘Forever Wild.'”

          But the Adirondack Mountain Club’s Woodworth said he’s not worried about overuse as much as some of the other threats because the overuse is concentrated in a few spots.

          “The overuse issue has been hyped up to be larger than it really is,” Woodworth said. “The reality is many areas of the eastern High Peaks are not experiencing overuse. Marcy, McIntyre (Algonquin), Mount Colden and some of the other peaks in the heart of the High Peaks are busy but not every day of the year. On popular weekends, yes, you can have too many people at the summit of Marcy. There are certainly issues that must be addressed at six to 12 of the High Peaks, but there are many places on the same kind of day where I can find solitude.”



          Ok back to parking. Sorry for the drift all!

          Comment


          • ndru
            ndru commented
            Editing a comment
            Crowds may discourage people who expected more solitude to go to another park.
            Funny. Restricting parking to a handful of spaces at major trailheads and doling out $250 fines also has a similar effect, jack***....

            ( Do note though, Willie Janeway is the Executive Director of the Adirondack Council, not ADK. )

        • #30
          Exactly - banging the gong of overuse - well said!

          Comment

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