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Thank you John Warren and Scott van Laer.

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  • #16
    Thanks. I think when discourse devolves to labeling people, disengaging is probably for the best. "Treehugger" is hardly a nasty epithet but in context it signaled he didn't respect your opinion and wasn't open to discussion. Yup, time to move on.

    ​I've already shared my "peach pit" story with you and how that ended on a positive note. However, I spoke to them in person and it was cordial whereas online conversations seem to give people license to readily "talk $hit".

    I honestly don't see much of that (labeling) here but it may have something to do with the demographics and moderation. Even the forum's Statement of Purpose says this is meant to be a "respectful and friendly meeting place".

    The telling part, for me, is what guided your self-censorship. You're aware there's an invisible line and it's as close as the topic of ... orange peels! I can't recall anyone here being labeled a "treehugger" for suggesting even more advanced examples of tree-hugging, err, LNT. Packing out soiled toilet-paper, wiping your butt with natural materials, etc might only get a tepid response like "Ugh. I'm not there yet!". Even the annual snowshoe/post-holing thread, a much anticipated seasonal event that helps to alleviate the symptoms of cabin-fever and increase the consumption of popcorn, doesn't require the ban-hammer.

    I appreciate your efforts (and jrjmurray gebby and John and Scott and others) to keep bumping that ceiling and nudging it a little higher. Perhaps someday there'll be adequate headroom to openly debate everything relevant to the High Peaks. For now, I'll leave the missionary work to you and talk openly about Tibet here.

    ​EDIT
    The "peach pit" story: during my WAIMC hike, I arrived on Colden where there were several small groups enjoying the day. There were four young men (from Quebec) having a snack and one tossed his peach pit into Avy Pass. Cue the treehugger. I explained why one should pack everything out, even peach pits. I added he also unknowingly tossed it in the direction of the Trap Dike Slide.We went through a list of apple cores, banana peels, etc (humoring the treehugger). The point seemed to be driven home when I explained their lightweight, easily-packed out trash was just one of potentially thousands of similar contributions to the backcountry. The conversation drifted to other hiking and backcountry topics and we ended up hiking out together and sharing a lot of laughs.If only it was always this kind of fun.
    Last edited by Trail Boss; 08-30-2016, 09:04 AM.
    Looking for Views!

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    • #17
      I used to belong to the Aspiring 46ers Facebook group (posting DEC SAR reports, closures/openings, trail conditions, etc - helpful sh*t), but I left the group last year after several people who are well-known on the Forum were trashed and slandered in a nasty, vile way after advocating LNT (in a civil way, mind you) following the notorious Phelps keg party incident. Personally, its amusing to be referred to as a trail cop or hiking NAZI (guess I gotta practice my goose step, albeit in trail runners). You could cut the narcissism with a knife in that group (and a few others).

      Glad to hear about what John Warren and Scott Van Laer did!
      We are closer now than we were five minutes ago

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      • #18
        So I am still a member over there but have had no real problems. I mean it is FB so I tend to be a bit guarded and if someone starts to troll or flame I just drop off the thread but honestly that has not happened too often. The photographer who got called out by Scott who also is a member here was non combative and apologetic as he thought his FAA source reference was sufficient relating to drones he has said he would no longer operate them in restricted areas.
        The statement that you will be banned for talking about LNT etc was taken out of context and misconstrued by several including John Warren,
        From the Notifications:
        "10/12/2015 Update BANNING YOU IS SIMPLE --> Chatroom style arguments will get you banned permanently. BANNED topics -if you feel the need to belabor the finer points of:

        1. Post-holing and snowshoeing.
        2. The keg/celebration rules.
        3. Nonsense, Ads, arguments, etc
        4. The Mud Argument
        5. Harassing ANYONE
        6. Extreme profanity
        7. Things I don't like.

        Perhaps 7 is the most important.

        That being said... way most importantly, this facebook page is a place where we can assist each other's endeavors in the mountains and be proud of each other's abnormal accomplishments."


        The "If you feel the need to belabor the finer points of" is the most important part of that statement. In other words these are the topics we all know that are most often argued or troll bait. He is not against these things he is against pointed rants, obnoxious behaviors and all those things we hate about trolls on FB.

        If you read the rest of the notifications I think you will find it less demonizing.
        "I love our mountains. I grew up in the ADKs knowing the legends and mystery. Now that I've moved too far for weekend hikes, this page is a surrogate- I get to see your pictures and hear your stories. I'm still hiking- 7 to go.

        This page was created for you- please take care of it as you would take care of our Adirondacks.
        Mike


        I had a series of messaging with him yesterday and he is a good guy IMHO just new to this whole moderating thousands of people deal by himself.
        "Climbing is about freedom. There's no prize money; there are no gold medals. The mountains are all about going there to do what you want to do. That's why I'll never tell anyone else how to climb. All I can say is, This is how I prefer to do it."
        Ed Viesturs

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        • gebby
          gebby commented
          Editing a comment
          I feel bad for him. His group for whatever reason is the go to group on Facebook for the 46 and gets tremendous traffic, mores posts in one day than all the other 46er type facebook groups combined I would estimate. I have suggested to him that he enlist the aid of other moderators(wasn't volunteering) but he states it is his baby and he wants to control it as he sees fit. Some pretty vigorous LNT debates the past few days and it's been going well. Happy to see that.

        • ADKJack
          ADKJack commented
          Editing a comment
          Gebby,
          Part of the reason for the large membership is the name and an assumption that it is associated with the 46ers which it is not but he also has in the information/notification area a link to the How to become a member of the 46ers. I kind of feel his pain, we were kinda persona non gratis when we decided to name the foundation ADKHighpeaks Foundation since the Mountain Club thought folks would confuse the two entities.

      • #19
        Hey, Jack, you old trail Nazi you! Will you be donning your Brown Shirt and goose-stepping up a summit this weekend? Achtung! Walken auf das grassen ist verboten!

        ​... that prolly sounded a lot nicer than how it was delivered to John. Anyone who's met him knows he didn't deserve the way he was treated on Wannabe46ers.
        Looking for Views!

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        • Makwa
          Makwa commented
          Editing a comment
          What? No Heil Peaks joke? You're slipping TB.

        • ADKJack
          ADKJack commented
          Editing a comment
          I must have missed something somewhere, what was the thread?

        • MtnManJohn
          MtnManJohn commented
          Editing a comment
          I could care less about being popular on those groups (any group for that matter). Dislike what I have to say? Pick a #, because you'll be in a long line.

      • #20
        LOL...Thank You!

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        • #21
          (Admins and mods can feel free to delete me and/or this page if you want. It's your sandbox.)

          Hi everyone... sooooooo.... I'm the guy who started the Aspiring Adk 46ers page on Facebook, Mike French. Pleased to meet you. This is my first time lurkin' around to see if there are external discussions about the Aspiring page. I'm also of course interested in talking about it to people who use it, hate it or like it, and I'd love to know what people want it to become and how we (I welcome any input) might best utilize this resource of hikers. We've got everyone from non-hikers to multiple W46-R's... and even the occasional sherpa. No foolin'.

          I also know that the moderators of this particular page may not love people talking about about a different adk hiking forum, even if it is "just facebook," so this'll be the last post about it, and then I'll shut up.... but there are a few misconceptions that I read on this page and others that I'd like to clear up.

          First, I run it for my own entertainment, for the protection and education of the people who use the park, and for the protection of the part from the people who trample it- the latter being the most important to me.

          A few years ago, maybe when the page grew to about 4000 users, a rumor started that I (I was the only mod until there were over 6500 people) was kicking people out for "talking about LNT." That's 100% false. It's been a persistent rumor due to the gross misreading of a "policy" I put in place that discouraged "arguments about postholing and the mud issue" among other issues in the description of the page. It wasnt designed to "shut people down for talking about the mud issue" or LNT, etc... Obviously, it was written to stop the constant in-fighting ....on a page about ...hiking.

          I do encourage debate and even heated discourse, of course, but no matter the topic, I enforce an "agree to disagree" policy and as it's written "Simply write/behave as if we're all sitting in a neighbor's kitchen and talking to kids and grandmas... or you wont be welcome." And I have no problem kicking out people who go too far, go on rants and curse at everyone, and scream and yell over nothing. Who wants that? Not me.

          Recently, I have had both ADK 46-R President Brian Hoody and Head Correspondent Mark Simpson on live for our Sunday Night live "AMA" style video chats- and they went well! These chats are a feature I've dubbed "Backcountry Talks," and these have been successful in educating people about the various causes or groups. I also had on DEC Forest Ranger Robbi Mecus (who some of you might know), also we had a winter survival expert and NYS guide, and we did a live talk from Marcy Dam talking to a hiker from Ottawa who had lost his glasses half way to the Loj, and showing birds land in our hands. Incidentally, the DEC was happy to speak directly to part of their core hiking audience and we could see the video played for about 6000+ users who watched about an hour each. That's great because we heard from a key authority in the park about postholing and mud and a whole lot more. The videos are up and running, free, and I'm talking with various Adirondack related groups who might want to be part of the Sunday Night chats in the future, and I have some great stuff cooking...(they dont happen every sunday!)

          So, this particular quote caught my eye from the last post above...
          "I suspect if I had been more strident, trying to convince him of just how "right" or "righteous" I am, it would have gone further downhill and the admin may have deleted the thread and/or me..."
          No, that wouldnt have happened. I do not delete people who are being civil. Period. The quote continues, "but I don't know that. If it's about my righteousness and making someone else wrong, nobody but the choir is going to hear my sermon."
          Unless you get crazy, I dont delete anyone. My policy is not much different from any other chatroom policy. Be cool, and everything's fine even if you're disagreeing or being enthusiastic about your disagreement. But it's the "rightousness" and "the sermon" is precisely what turned me, personally, away from many of the really smart and positive laws (and well-meaning people) in my early hiking days (not that I would have ever egregiously or knowingly broken any of these laws or rules because in the place of LNT, I had my grandparents and parents who taught me a lot about being good to the woods.)

          So, when people "project the rules AT you" instead of showing you why the rules were written and why they make sense, there's a difference. You're given the chance to make up your own mind, and you're treated like an adult. I prefer to be helped toward the goal, rather than to be forced. I've found that people dont like sentences that begin "You should... bla bla bla." But, when someone hears the argument presented in a way that shows them, say, how erosion negatively affects the mountain and trails- combined with "you can make a difference by simply walking though the middle of the mud." It works great because people WANT to internalize the laws and rules, and they self-enforce the rules as if they thought it up themselves. Then they go out to show others what they learned and why it matters.

          I've seen it happen many times and it can spread like wildfire. (Wildfire, in this case, being good- and ironic.)

          That's much more my own style, and I think it's where some of the confusion started. And to be honest, I just started this page about 5 years ago so that I could see photos and hear stories of the backcountry places grew up next to and that I love so much. I really wasnt prepared for this page to explode like it has, but I'm glad it has- and it's a resource that almost nobody is taking advantage of. I dont make any money off it, and we do it for the fun and for the mountains. I encourage people to use the page for the good of the park and for the good of each other.

          I'm currently a 40er, and I'm probably going to finish this year. I love our mountains and the spaces in between. This winter I was able to go explore Marshall with my buddy Frank.
          But I'm getting better at the moderating 11000 people. I made mistakes, and I'm learning from them. I feel good about where we are now, and I know it's not perfect.

          But, never did I ever kick a person off the page for espousing the virtues of "Leave No Trace."

          (Admins and mods can feel free to delete me and/or this page if you want. It's your sandbox.)
          -Frenchy from 'Aspring Adirondack 46ers'

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          • #22
            Originally posted by adirondack View Post

            But, never did I ever kick a person off the page for espousing the virtues of "Leave No Trace."
            Welcome to the forum!

            Thanks for clearing that up.

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            • #23
              This page is intense.

              Neil, Id love to talk with you sometime- I've got a lot to learn from you and from this group. And it's interesting seeing the overlap between our pages- as well as the unique parts.

              I appreciate you giving me space to write that. Perhaps I needed to vent on a day that was a bit more stressful than I'd have liked.

              My page is your page- use it as you see fit.

              See you out there,
              ~Frenchy
              Last edited by adirondack; 03-30-2017, 09:36 PM. Reason: Added a line
              -Frenchy from 'Aspring Adirondack 46ers'

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              • #24
                Welcome to a very wonderful group of people Frenchy. We may snipe at one another on occasion, though that is often as we are pulling their asses out of the fire while risking our own necks. For anyone who can still handle 'the long form', ADKHighpeaks rocks!

                Also, everyone should spend at least one afternoon on the trail taking directly to Trail Boss. Once you do that, everything you may read of his takes on a whole new canter and characterization (damn it Neil, get spell check, since I was unsure of that one, and had to Goggle it!).
                www.TMax-n-topo.com

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                • #25
                  Originally posted by topofgothics View Post
                  Also, everyone should spend at least one afternoon on the trail taking directly to Trail Boss.
                  Many of us on the forum have hiked and partied together. Because we actually know each other in analog we "hear" our tone when we read each other's posts. We know where the other person is coming from. That makes a big difference in understanding.

                  Also, the "long form" here results in well developed and thoughtful posts and indeed some threads can be much more intense than on FB.


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                  • #26
                    Welcome to the forum Mike! I hope you stick around and participate.
                    Crepuscular Rays: Dissolve into evergreens

                    There's always gonna be another mountain
                    I'm always gonna wanna make it move
                    Always gonna be an uphill battle
                    Sometimes I'm gonna have to lose
                    Ain't about how fast I get there
                    Ain't about what's waitin' on the other side...
                    It's the climb
                    -Miley Cyrus

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                    • #27
                      Originally posted by adirondack View Post
                      But, never did I ever kick a person off the page for espousing the virtues of "Leave No Trace."
                      Welcome to the forum, Mike! Thanks for taking the time to set the record straight.

                      Mea culpa. Looking back at old posts, apparently Chris was banned for being too strident about DEC regulations (concerning group-size and glass containers). So, yes, his ejection was not due to proselytizing about LNT ... but for, and I'll use your words here, "projecting" the DEC regulations at others.

                      ​John was trident about littering (LNT) but I don't believe he was banned (more like a self-imposed exile due to excessive browbeating). So, again, my bad ... your ban-hammer never struck anyone sermonizing about LNT.

                      Unless you get crazy, I dont delete anyone.
                      ​I guess Chris got crazy.

                      But it's the "rightousness" and "the sermon" is precisely what turned me, personally, away from many of the really smart and positive laws ... in my early hiking days. ...So, when people "project the rules AT you" instead of showing you why the rules were written and why they make sense, there's a difference.
                      If I may paraphrase, "Break it to me very gently because I don't take well to discovering I'm misinformed."

                      I'm also of course interested in talking about it to people who use it, hate it or like it, and I'd love to know what people want it to become and how we (I welcome any input) might best utilize this resource of hikers.​
                      Although a lot can be conveyed in one or two lines (looking at you, POTUS) brevity can frequently lead to poorly communicated ideas (looking at you again, POTUS).​ I think this is Facebook's Achilles Heel; posts that could easily qualify as tweets. They invest little time fleshing out their responses (yet paradoxically have no problem finding the time to post many brief responses).

                      My first theory was that it's the fault of the format (i.e. Facebook's software). It seems to encourage quips and discourage long-form discourse. Reddit tends towards short retorts as well (otherwise, it's tl;dr). However, I now think it's simply due to the changing nature of interpersonal communications. ​In other words, it's all about changing demographics.

                      I'll be the first to admit I'm an old fart who prefers to call rather than text ... and recognizes this is far from the norm. Most people's communications consist of terse, thumb-typed, nuggets. What they post on Facebook and Reddit is just the way they normally "communicate". Boomers like myself, who've frequented this forum for many years, are more likely to stitch a few paragraphs together whereas their offspring (and their offspring's offspring!) draw the line at stitching together a few words ... or just ephemeral images on Snapchat.

                      Mike, imagine yourself 30-40 years from now. You're still hiking in the Adirondacks and, much to your disappointment, discover hikers are as "under-informed" as they were four decades earlier. An entirely new generation is on the trails and they're no smarter, maybe even more willfully ignorant.
                      • They litter and defend the practice by claiming it's "biodegradable". (Hell, you can claim that for everything, including metal and plastic, but the time involved is the issue).
                      • ​They ignore regulations clearly posted at the trailhead. ("I saw them ... but I didn't read them.")
                      • ​They seek easier ways around challenging sections by creating bypass trails. ("It looked like the trail to me.")
                      • ​They deposit their feces above ground, next to or on the trail, and even on summits. ("Relax, it's the outdoors ... it's biodegradable.")
                      • ​They lose their way on easy, well-marked trails. ("My phone's battery died.")
                      • They camp and/or make campfires where they're forbidden. ("Yeah but what are the odds of being caught?")
                      • They don't use bear-canisters or snowshoes where they are obligatory. ("I drove hours to get here and wasn't going to ruin my trip because of some dopey rules.")
                      ​You shake your head in disgust and ask yourself why four decades worth of easily available information didn't serve to educate this new generation of know-nothings. They're ignorance is contributing to the ruination of your beloved High Peaks. How is it that we've failed them so badly?

                      ​You see Mike, I started hiking in 1978. So when I see the same stupid-hiker $hit four decades later, I wonder what could've been done differently. Your FB pulpit presents you with a golden opportunity to make an enormous difference .... so don't blow it because you're "turned away" by the strident tone of people who are, imperfect communicators as they may be, fighting the good fight.
                      Looking for Views!

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                      • #28
                        Frenchy,

                        Welcome to the Forum and thanks for clearing up some misconceptions. I'd have to imagine that after reading through this thread it took a certain level of courage to address this group, as well as a fair amount of personal restraint not to burst in like the Kool-Aid man and start venting. I'm admittedly guilty of passing judgement against your page based on some hearsay in addition to the snippets I've read while lurking over there (yes, some of the comments are extremely frustrating). Back when I was on the book of faces I received a couple of nasty responses from folks over there when I was trying to be civil and helpful, but I now sense that it was just a matter of encountering the wrong person at the right time, which thankfully isn't the norm for your page.

                        Thank you for not discouraging LNT, and doing the AMA style info sessions. You've got a very eclectic group over there, probably far more so than here. Knowing a handful of your Aspiring 46'r members personally, I can confirm that you've got your work cut out for you if you plan to start actively promoting LNT and DEC regs.
                        Last edited by FlyFishingandBeer; 03-31-2017, 11:20 AM. Reason: "A Word"
                        My mind was wandering like the wild geese in the west.

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                        • #29
                          Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                          My first theory was that it's the fault of the format (i.e. Facebook's software). It seems to encourage quips and discourage long-form discourse. Reddit tends towards short retorts as well (otherwise, it's tl;dr). However, I now think it's simply due to the changing nature of interpersonal communications. ​In other words, it's all about changing demographics.
                          I hate to harp on how much hate I have for Facebook (unintentional alliteration, wow!) but social media sites like it are psychological poison. They deliberately present content and ideas meant to influence your behavior, and are successful. Sites like this one and even somewhat Reddit to some extent are a little different in that there is no machine algorithm determining what content you see, it is up to you and the other users on the site. (Reddit has aspects of both.) And yes, some of that algorithm is time-oriented, so quicker is better.

                          It may be a demographic shift, but it is a deliberately orchestrated one. (Perhaps foolishly unintentional one is more correct?)

                          Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                          I'll be the first to admit I'm an old fart who prefers to call rather than text
                          Crazy talk.

                          Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                          ...whereas their offspring (and their offspring's offspring!) draw the line at stitching together a few words ... or just ephemeral images ...



                          Obviously Facebook presents an opportunity to reach people who wouldn't have otherwise been reached, and that's why so many people champion it. I'm no longer one.

                          adirondack, glad you came on board. Hope you stay.
                          ADK 46/46W + MacNaughton, Grid 277/552
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