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Descriptions to include in a slide book/catalogue.

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  • Neil
    replied
    Originally posted by pete_hickey
    I think the average is somewhat meaningless. It is the steep sections that are important. OK, the average can give an idea of what it is like, but the steep sections are the real crux. And that's the way climbing is rated, not by overall, but by the worst sections.
    I agree 100% as regards giving an overall rating to a slide climb.

    But maybe in the body of the description describing both the average pitch of the entire slide plus pitch and length of the steepest portions would help grasp the overall nature of the trip.

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  • pete_hickey
    replied
    Originally posted by neil
    . Using Topo! I got an average per cent incline of around 60%. But, there are 2 50 sections where the incline is 100% or 45 deg. (The Eagle's ave. incline is only 80%.)
    I think the average is somewhat meaningless. It is the steep sections that are important. OK, the average can give an idea of what it is like, but the steep sections are the real crux. And that's the way climbing is rated, not by overall, but by the worst sections.

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  • Neil
    replied
    I did the Colden 1990 slide yesterday. Using Topo! I got an average per cent incline of around 60%. But, there are 2 50 sections where the incline is 100% or 45 deg. (The Eagle's ave. incline is only 80%.) My lowtops are pretty worn out and they barely held on these 45 deg. sections. A year ago I did this same slide with 2 other people who had a very unpleasant experience because of those sections. You can only get around them by entering equally steep, horrendous cripplebush. So, I would rate this one as difficult.
    Also, on the lower approach to the slide there are some little steps to climb up. My son rated them as 5.4. However, you can easily detour these short steps. So, those sections would be rated easy and but would get a mention of the 5.4 moves one can choose to make.

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  • masshysteria
    replied
    I have a couple of thoughts. First off, when it comes to rating steepness, one mans 'thrilling climb' might be another mans ' your nuts'. That would mean a numerical rating system would have to be used, but what would the standards for that system be? Using the YDS, the slide climbs look like they fall into the 3.0 to 4.5 range, but what would constitute a 3.9 and what would make that different from a 4.1?

    An option for your slide description might be if you could show a graphical representation of the elevation change and steepness of a slide. That way, instead of giving a slide a numerical rating, or a grade percentage, you can show a picture on a graph. On my Garmin E-Trex Vista, there is a barometric altimeter. It will show you a graph of your elevation changes. Unfortunately, that info does not download to any of the mapping softwares ( I have Garmin, NG, and Delorme). You can build a profile of a hike from the track you took, but that is based on the software's maps, not the actual GPS elevation track.

    Andrew LaVigne's web site, http://alavigne.homeip.net/newHomePa...acks/index.jsp
    Andrew's Web Site - The Adirondack High Peaks Region and Andrew's 46er Page , has this feature at the end of his trip reports. I emailed him one time to ask him how he was able to graph the info. Unfortunately, his answer had alot of technical stuff in it, so he might as well have been speaking Assyrian to me. But someone with any computer knowledge would surely know of what he speaks. I'm still trying to memorize my "gazintas"!

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  • Dynotrick
    replied
    I would say use the system as a guide and try to be descriptive about the route and let people deceide for themselves.

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  • Dynotrick
    replied
    good definition - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System

    They way I learned it and how it is defined in most climbing resources:

    Class 1 - Walking and hiking, generally, hands are not needed.

    Class 2 - Hiking, mostly on established trails involving some scrambling with occasional use of hands.

    Class 3 - Climbing or scrambling with moderate exposure. Angle steep enough that hands are needed for balance.

    Class 4 - Intermediate climbing with exposure extreme enough that most mountaineers will want a belay. A fall could be serious or fatal. Intermediate climbing requires the use of your hands and arms for pulling yourself up.

    Class 5 - Technical rock climbing is encompassed in Class 5 climbing. A rope, specialized equipment and training are used by the leader to protect against a fall.

    5.0-5.4: A person of reasonable fitness can climb at this level with little or no rock climbing skills.

    5.4-5.7: Requires rock climbing skills or strength.

    5.7-5.9: Good rock climbing skills and strength are generally needed to climb at this level.

    5.10-5.14: Excellent rock climbing skills are required to climb at this level.

    Class 6 - Rock so shear and smooth that it is unclimbable, without the use of aid.

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  • Neil
    replied
    Originally posted by qam1
    Class 1: you fall, you're stupid.
    Oh oh. This is bad news for me.

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  • qam1
    replied
    Here's a site that explains the ratings well

    http://www.climber.org/Resource/decimal.html

    It includes this basic way of thinking of them

    Class 1: you fall, you're stupid.
    Class 2: you fall, you break your arm.
    Class 3: you fall, you break your leg.
    Class 4: you fall, you are almost dead (i.e., you can't breath and move your arms, legs, and head).
    Class 5: you fall, you are dead.

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  • Dynotrick
    replied
    Originally posted by TEO

    The Adirondack Climbing book rates the Eagle Slide and Trap Dike with the YDS, if I recall correctly. Most slides in the Adirondacks will either be Class 2 or 3.
    I was going to say this but don't have and 1st hand exp. climbing slides yet so I wasn't 100% sure :lol:

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  • TEO
    replied
    Originally posted by neil
    This effort, if it ever gets off the ground (ha, ha) will be aimed at the hiking public. Unless a chart was included detailing the class system no one would understand it anyway. Most of the dozen or so slides I've done thus far have been friction climbs with hands being helpful often and essential occasionally.
    The Yosemite Decimal System (YDS) is the standard for North America and is used frequently in guidebooks (i.e. Beckey's) to describe scrambling on slides, above treeline routes, etc. It is described in "Freedom of the Hills" thusly:

    "Class 1: Hiking.
    Class 2: Simple scrambling, with possible occasional use of the hands.
    Class 3: Scrambling, a rope can be carried but is usually not required.
    Class 4: Simple climbing, with exposure. A rope is often used. Natural protection can be easily found. Falls may well be fatal.
    Class 5: Technical free climbing. Climbing involves rope, belaying, and other protection hardware for safety."

    If you were to do a slide guidebook, I would strongly encourage using the system, because it is universally understood in North America. Simply include the above description in the beginning of the book. It is relatively simple and easy until you get into Class 5 ratings, but that wouldn't be a problem in this project.

    The Adirondack Climbing book rates the Eagle Slide and Trap Dike with the YDS, if I recall correctly. Most slides in the Adirondacks will either be Class 2 or 3.

    P.s. I'm a hiker not a climber, but I have a good buddy who climbs and I have climbed with him a couple times.

    Edit to add: P.p.s I am one of those who is bothered by exposure, but I try to face it head on as much as possible, with varying degrees of success.

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  • pete_hickey
    replied
    Originally posted by neil
    I was hoping to avoid rating an entire slide as Calss x.

    I subjectively rate difficulty in terms of exposure: ie. enough to get badly hurt but not a "death fall"
    That isn't really what exposure is. Exposure is the perception. A wide open slide is much more scarey than a very narrow one. It's mental. One can get killed easily in places with little exposure.

    Some people are bothered by exposure, others are not.

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  • Neil
    replied
    This effort, if it ever gets off the ground (ha, ha) will be aimed at the hiking public. Unless a chart was included detailing the class system no one would understand it anyway. Most of the dozen or so slides I've done thus far have been friction climbs with hands being helpful often and essential occasionally.

    Allthough I never felt like I was in any danger (and I'm a really lousey rock climber) my friends were quite uncomfortable on the upper reaches of the 1990 Colden slide. At one point on a particularly steep part this girl began to slip. (After that she stuck to the very edge of the slide for the rest of the trip and had to take a big crap once we got off the slide.)

    I doubt we were on a class 5 but conveying a certain degrees of steepness to a lay audience will be important.

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  • Dynotrick
    replied
    Originally posted by pete_hickey
    Originally posted by neil
    Dominic assures me he understands it. He also says you don't need ropes untill 5.4 which is different from what little I do know.
    You don't need ropes if you're not going to fall.

    5.4 and below are rather easy. Ropes are just there in case you fall.

    true but i'm more of a "better safe than sorry" kind of guy, as a climber who is afraid of heights (irony huh) i just like the rope for that "safe" feeling on anything approaching vertical and more than 7 feet up even when i know i can handle it. my best fall was 20 feet headfirst on a 30 foot cliff - stopped about 6 feet from hitting bottom. this was one that shouldn't have happened but did - you never know when your going to slip up.

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  • pete_hickey
    replied
    Originally posted by neil
    Dominic assures me he understands it. He also says you don't need ropes untill 5.4 which is different from what little I do know.
    You don't need ropes if you're not going to fall.

    5.4 and below are rather easy. Ropes are just there in case you fall.

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  • Dynotrick
    replied
    really any class 5 should need ropes as they are vertical or near vertical.

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