Breaking Trail

[knuckledragger]

Yesterday I went out snowshoeing upa small mopuntain behind the house. It took us aproximatly 50 min to an hour to break out a 1/4 mile. I have 30" tubbs mountain snowshoes and my oldest was useing my 25" Redfeathers. we were consistanly in snow from knee to waist deep. My question is what is your average speed when trail breaking? I really want an idea how out of shape i am after spending more time in a classroom than on the trail the last year.
Dave

[TFR]

Originally Posted by knuckledragger

Yesterday I went out snowshoeing upa small mopuntain behind the house. It took us aproximatly 50 min to an hour to break out a 1/4 mile. I have 30" tubbs mountain snowshoes and my oldest was useing my 25" Redfeathers. we were consistanly in snow from knee to waist deep. My question is what is your average speed when trail breaking? I really want an idea how out of shape i am after spending more time in a classroom than on the trail the last year.
Dave

Given all the snow we've had, that sounds perfectly reasonable. If you've read the Trip Reports recently, you'll see it took 3 strong hikers 10 hours to do Giant. There are several other examples in the same ball park.

[eddogg12]

Originally Posted by knuckledragger

...50 min to an hour to break out a 1/4 mile...

That sounds about right, a big thanks goes out to everyone breaking trail in the high peaks.

[WalksWithBlackflies]

I've been breaking about a mile/hour, but that is on flatter grades (10% max), on perfectly smooth trails with no roots/rocks to contend with, in powder snow, with 36" snowshoes, and I had been bareboot running in the snow for the prior 6 weeks. So your pace is reasonable. If your legs aren't conditioned for the resistance they encounter when trailbreaking, your pace will definitely suffer. Great workout though!

[mudhook]

Sounds very reasonable. I can attest to that. I have broken trail many times in what I thought was deep snow here in the Cats and flatter areas in the ADKS , but nothing like what I encountered Tuesday just going to Nye. I owe someone a bucket of beer and berries for what was broke out.

[rockysummit]

Ah, beer and berries, almost as good as bologna and whip cream! (3 stooges line)

[lowlander]

Its funny this post came out the same day I spent 2:30 going about a mile and a half towards NE Halcot. This is the first time I've been sore in about a year. Reading about everyone else having the same problems, is making me feel better, though.

[Mavs00]

First, I am not an all-world trail-breaker, but I have been on few successful and unsuccessful trudges through deep, unbroken snow. Including one successful one yesterday (in these current snow conditions). It was a modest goal (6+ miles RT-out and back, 1600'+ ascent) to an obscure pathless summit. All of it in unbroken, untrailed, and in mildly-consolidated (compared to last week) snow that was anywhere from 30" to 5'-7' deep. It took just over 7 hours, 4.5 up, 2.5 down, so the "how long does it take?" is very variable and dependent on so many things.

With that in mind, and you don't mind a little thread drift, I made a few observations during yesterdays hike that I think, could increase your chances for success no matter what pace gets set. Feel free to agree or disagree.

1. Trailed or untrailed - Bushwhacking in deep snow is, in general, more difficult to me than on trailed routes, particularly when the going gets thick.
2. Party size - Make sure that the destination you choose is appropriate for the group size you actually have. You and Uncle Floyd (from Miami) are probably not gonna be able to bust out the entire trail from JLB to Haystack after a 30"+ storm like we had the other day, no matter how strong you are. We had 6 for our modest destination, which was fine.
3. Group make-up - Do yourself a favor and heavily stock your group with "Mules". Strong, athletic, experienced trail breakers that can really power you through many spots in the lead. In our group of 6, we had 4 of these guys (I was NOT one of them). Just make sure if your not one of them (like me), give credit where credit is due. I was successful primarily on the backs of these 4 great hikers, and I'm not to proud to admit it.
4. Heavyweights - Try, if at all possible, NOT to be the fattest guy in the group (I was this guy). You'll likely work just as hard as the guys up front, even in that 3rd-4th spot. I'm not huge (about 5'11", 200#), but with my 20-25 lb winter pack, my 220-225 lbs was probably 20 lbs or so heavier then the next guy in the group. The Mules (who will never understand this concept), are essential to the success of the hike, but they tend to be lighter, more athletic types that "float" better over the deep snow. If your the heavyweight, you will poke through way more frequently, causing a good deal more struggling to get out of these holes (thus more work). I was consistently deeper then the rest of the group and probably struggled the most. It was frustrating to put my foot down on one of these footfalls and have it sink another 18' down
5. Hydration and moisture management - Even more important then usual. You cannot stay totally dry in these conditions so you need to take that into account and prepare accordingly. Hydration and food. You are generally working very hard, and if not properly hydrated and fueled, YOU WILL PAY. I cramped quite a bit on the way up and was forced to change my hydration pattern, and it helped - a lot.
6. Weather - Sometimes you can't help this but, if possible, go in under 20 degree weather. Once you get to that 26-35 degree whether, it get much tougher. Sure, the weather is more pleasant, but once that snow heats up, it get HEAVY, real HEAVY. Same thing happens late in the day. While the heat up will help condense the snow nicely, trudging through it while its warming is a bear.
7. HAVING FUN - Keep a positive attitude and having a fun group of good people will greatly enhance the experience and make the difficult and tough work much more enjoyable. We had plenty of both, and while I'm sure all would agree that it wasn't the easiest 6 miles we ever walked, ALL enjoyed ourselves immensely and probably wouldn't hesitate to undertake a similar venture again. It makes all the difference in the world

The bottom line for me is: There is nothing quite like the spirit and satisfaction one gets of sitting atop a peak (pathless or otherwise) surrounded by miles of unbroken, windblown, deep glorious snow. That you were able to get there makes it all the more special. Just be smart and you'll increase your chances of success. Afterall, there is nothing that sucks quite like busting your hump for 5 or 6 (and more) hours, only to have to turn back short of where you wanted to be.

[adkdremn]

Originally Posted by i12climbup

I dunno about that ..... think I'll have to disagree ..... some of the most memorable hikes were the failed summit attempts. A peak summited after having failed several times is one of the sweetest rewards. When setting out on a winter hike, I already know that my chances of summiting are much less than in summer. To be fair, tho, it's only human to feel disappointed that a goal has not been reached, and I think that is what you are alluding to .... the initial feeling of failure. That feeling doesn't usually last long, and what is left are the good memories you've had being with your friends and enjoying the mountains, knowing in your heart that you'll be back.

I agree wholeheartedly with this! I've only been involved in one trailbreaking effort. Two Octobers ago there was that huge early season dumping, 2+'. This was my first time hiking in winter conditions, my brother in law and I spent the night at the Howard lean-to hoping to do LWJ, UWJ, Armstrong and Gothics. Fortunately we met up with 3 guys who were also planning on the same trip. We made it only half between the WJ lean-to and the WJ Notch, it took us a good 5+ hours to go not real far. Sure we were disappointed about not reaching the peaks, but I can tell you I was awestruck by my surroundings. It certainly wasn't a waste of hike to me, I loved every minute of it!
And oh yeah, I got to meet Neil which certainly made the weekend for me!:p

[Mavs00]

Originally Posted by i12climbup

I dunno about that ..... think I'll have to disagree ..... some of the most memorable hikes were the failed summit attempts.

The point being.......... no-one, at least no-one I know, sets out to fail.

There is no doupt that some of my more memorable hikes were the ones that did not result in a successful summit, so in that I'd agree with you. My greater point I was trying to make was that increasing your chances of success, often times will mean the difference between success and failure, particularly when it comes to deep unbroken snow.

Originally Posted by i12climbup

To be fair, tho, it's only human to feel disappointed that a goal has not been reached, and I think that is what you are alluding to .... the initial feeling of failure.

It was and I would NEVER consider a failed summit bit to be a wasted hike. In my opinion, there is no such animal

Originally Posted by Mavs00

Afterall, there is nothing that sucks quite like busting your hump for 5 or 6 (and more) hours, only to have to turn back short of where you wanted to be.

Perhaps it would have been more clear if I added:

............ because you were unprepared or unaware of what you were facing.

[AlpineSummit]

I've gotta say that I find trail-breaking to be exhausting and absolutely no fun at all. Uphill or even on the level is grueling. At 215 I bust a deep, wide path!
Now, if I were one of those 150 lb speedsters it would be a different story.

[Skyclimber]

Originally Posted by AlpineSummit

I've gotta say that I find trail-breaking to be exhausting and absolutely no fun at all. Uphill or even on the level is grueling. At 215 I bust a deep, wide path!

Ah it's not that bad once you get the rhythm and momentum going. But it also feels good to step to the back of the line.

It makes for a peak well deserved earned.

[ElectricMan]

Originally Posted by Skyclimber

Ah it's not that bad once you get the rhythm and momentum going. But it also feels good to step to the back of the line.

It makes for a peak well deserved earned.

Do ya’ll do the 100 step count and move to the back of the line?
Equally sharing can be so gratifying.

[Skyclimber]

Originally Posted by ElectricMan

Do ya’ll do the 100 step count and move to the back of the line?
Equally sharing can be so gratifying.

Of course this all depends on the conditions. We have several techniques. We do the ten minutes on, ten minutes off, rotating among everyone. It's a little more difficult when there is only two of you though!

Sometimes it could be twenty steps and back of the line. We also do the until your tired, go to the back of the line as well. All in all everyone gets a turn. Afterall, you can't go for a "free ride."

[randomscooter]

Originally Posted by Skyclimber

All in all everyone gets a turn. Afterall, you can't go for a "free ride."

I almost never lead when I hike with Pinpin, but I've never really considered it a free ride. Very humbling in fact.

[Mavs00]

If a group member is not contributing and this is upsetting to the group then most likely they won't be invited on the next similiar outing. Counting or clock watching isn't why I'm out playing in the snow.

Good point. Guess I ain't hiking with Rik anytime soon (he was one of the mules)

The other day, on the relatively long slog in, we all took turns of about 10-15 minutes each, so with 6 in our group, I ended up taking part in about 3 of those before we "hit the mountain" and started going up. At about that time 3 (mules) in our group charged ahead in the lead while the other three of us steadied at a moderate pace. Not by design, they just set a faster pace and forged on, and I wasn't (and couldn't) gonna run to keep up.

During some of the early ups, the snow got deeper and I stated poking through more and had to fight the snow more. Due to poor early hydration, I started cramping and had readjust my hydration to keep ahead of cramping, so (the 3 in our group) we just plodded along about 5-10 minutes behind the leaders. We still ended up catching the lead group as they bogged down in some thick stuff. 2 of us from the back group (I was feeling better) then dove into the thickest stuff and we ended up swimming around (going nowhere) in a WALL of deep snow, intertwined with thick spruce thickets. It took us a good 30 minutes to bust through a short 100-150 foot section.

Once through though, we opened above it in the final steep (mostly open) section and the 4 lightweights (initial 3, plus one from the earlier back group) took the lead again there and pretty much blazed up top. At that point, it did not matter, the snow was so deep and thick, we all we swimming. I had to slow down quite a bit, not really out a fatigue as much as careful foot placement. I struggle to float on top of the track laid by the lead group

The snow condition were tough too because all of it fell in 1-2 big dumps, so there were tons of deep pockets and spruce traps under the snow where the snow just never got a chance to settle to. I found many of them. Also, the snow had consildated some from the other day, it still lacked good flotation

It wasn't my best day, physically, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Actually, other then the cramping I was fine, I just had to move slowing in order to keep it at bay. At the end of the day, I was fine (if tired). It's okay though, I offered up my son to the group to do my share of the heavy lifting up front, and he did..... He spent most of the day in the lead group as a mule.

[ElectricMan]

I like the counting method myself…….1, 7, 12, 19, 25, etc….
The experienced hikers will catch on to that after a couple of outings.

Then I’ll go to the timing method…. “Hey guys, how bout I break trail first?” I’ll usually just keep going until I know the steeps are about to start, then I’ll move to the back of the line.

Using with these two methods I can usually get 4 good hikes out of a group before the entire group catches on and I have to starting hiking with another group….

Unfortunately, I’ve bout use up all the groups I can find in NE.
Hey, I haven’t done any winter hiking in the ADK’s, anyone want to join me?

[Nessmuk]

I own a hunting cabin on Tug Hill, very close to the Montague NOAA doppler radar site, where the lake effect snow machine is the heaviest. Usually 2-3 times each winter I ski a mile and a half in to shovel 3+ feet or more of snow off the roof to prevent collapse. I don't spend much other time there anymore because it in recent years has become overrun by 24 hours of snowmobile traffic noise in the winter, ATVs overrun the seasonal access road in summer.

My normal ski route in takes me on a (usually) well packed snowmobile road for the first mile, to where I can cut across an isolated untrailed marsh for the last half mile to enjoy some safe and peaceful travel by myself. The 1.5 mile total ski trip normally takes me about 25-30 minutes even while breaking trail over the marsh.

About 6 years ago, 4 of my hiking friends and I decided to spend New Year's Eve and the following weekend at the cabin and have some fun building snow shelters. After a hearty late dinner at my home, we drove to Montague in an increasingly heavy lake effect snowstorm to arrive at the parking area under the radar site around 10 pm - lots of vehicles and snow machines were already parked there also, at the local watering hole (Montague Inn). In spite of the snow I had expected the snowmobile trail to be groomed and freshly traveled as it always is. But I guess I should have anticipated the snowmobilers to be tanking up at the bar instead of riding on this night. It probably hadn't been tracked in hours.

My friends and I started out on skis on the road/trail pulling our gear on sleds in about 10 inches of fresh snow. The moon was full and we could easily see without lamps in the filtered moonlight where we were going, though only feet in front of us because of the falling snow density. It was falling as heavy as I had ever seen it (I grew up in the area) - big fat flakes in zero wind falling straight down. At a rate of five inches/hour, if you inhale deeply you get a sensation of choking. This was certainly all of that and more. The only way to be certain we were still on the road was the tree line on either side. Even I soon lost awareness of how far along the road we really were.

As we trudged on, the snow piled up quickly, knee deep, thigh deep, waist deep and more. It became so difficult to move, no matter if switching from skis to snowshoes to bare boot, it was all the same rate of progress. We took turns sending one person ahead about 50 feet at a time to make a trail through the now chest deep fluff. One of my friends wanted to stop to break in an abandoned house along the road for shelter and rest. But since everyone was still warm and hydrated without any sign of hypothermia, I declined that suggestion. We continued taking turns trailbreaking and retrieving sleds for hours, until abandoning the sleds well off the track (out of groomer range) for later retrieval. Near the end, the only marginally effective forward movement we could make was by using a swimming motion with our arms.

I had no idea what time it was since my watch was under an ice crusted jacket sleeve. As we finally approached to within a few hundred yards of the cabin I noticed a funny thing. It was getting light out! By the time we reached and shoveled out the door using snowshoes it was fully daylight. I lit a fire in the stove and we crashed most of the rest of the day.

In the end it took 7 1/2 hours to travel what normally is skied in 30 minutes for average rate of 0.2 mph - much much less over the second half, I'm sure. As one of my friends still says, shaking his head... "epic". We will never forget that night and look back now at a terrific experience.

[Skyclimber]

It is a good system for the weaker members to break on the flats and the stronger members be saved for the steep ups.

I've seen times that my little legs have spun trying to break up steep sections. Having to stay in the back the entire time, letting the longer legs do the work.

[Skyclimber]

Originally Posted by Rik

Little legs. I'll have to remember this one.

Hey sometimes it's great being a "Midget Buddy" as I am sometimes called!