A word about trip reports... (Important)

[Mavs00]

In the recent weeks there has been a fair amount of discussion as it relates to trip reports on this board, and the practice of safe, responsible back-country winter travel. WE have had some public discussions, and some private ones too between moderators. We have determined that the following will be the ongoing standard for this board (and over at ADKForum). We hope that this is acceptable to the balance of our community.

Although at times it may not appear so, we take hiker safety, private property, and responsible LNT principles very seriously. Anyone that actually has taken the time to get to know us, probably already knows this. At the same time, we also have to administrate this board too, which, with over 1400 members, is as diverse as it is experienced. Part of the reason this board has grown to become what it has is, in addition to the valuable contributions from members, we have a certain “casual” moderation style that that we feel allows for some individual personality to show through and gives it character. In some cases, that is good, and in others it might be bad. It is however, who we are, and always will be. Striking a balance between the two is not as easy as it seems.

We have determined that when it comes to posting on the informational side of this site (not in the trip report sections), we will moderate a little more aggressively for posts that we determine violate some of the principles about hiker safety, and responsible backcountry travel that WE think are important. It may not be what you think is important (and you are welcome to tell us otherwise in private), but it will be something that we will consciously do (continue to do actually). As always, if you see questionable material that we miss, we hope that you will bring it to our attention.

When it comes to trip reports, we are much more hesitant to do so. Keep in mind, a trip report is a personal story that a user CHOOSES to share with the group. They CHOOSE to do so in a fashion that is right for them and speaks to their personality (good or bad). This board lives or dies on the sharing of information by members and if we, as moderators, begin to edit for content too much, we would end up discouraging the “sharing” process. We are not willing to sacrifice that. We will continue to have a “looser” moderation standard in the trip reports section. However, we will take a harder stand against deliberate “poking fun” at other members through reports, which has been done lately. It’s unacceptable and should not occur….. and yes, we recognize the “we” part of that and will correct it.

What that means to you, as the reader, is pretty simple. Take what you read in the trip report section and hold it to a higher scrutiny level when it comes to practical application in the woods. Because it’s a personal account, it means that whatever is contained is individually based, and is not necessarily guaranteed to keep anyone safe if they attempt to follow the same examples posted by someone else. They may, depending how the each user chooses to share their personal accounts, but we (adkhighpeaks) cannot assume responsibility if it doesn’t. That is not our role here. I would add that if you do question some of the content you find in the trip report section, you need to bring it up to the original poster (preferably privately) and deal with it that way. Much of this outlined in the FORUM RULES and DISCLAIMER, so review them if you need too.

Of course, the door is always open and you can always comment to us privately about this or any other matter.

[Mavs00]

Here's a little perspective to give you some {helpful} background that explains the thought process for the above post. An FYI if you will;

I started, and have run this board for 5 years, back from when we had 8-10 members all the way through to today. Neil has been on board for most of that time as well. It really started as a place where like-minded folks could come and “shoot the bull”, barroom style. If you think about it, its really all it is today, just bigger. If you expect more, I'm afraid to tell you that you will likely be “disappointed”. Sorry

Between here and ADKForum, there are over 5000 members, so we are forced to “look at” a much larger picture than we would otherwise be able to as a single member (like all of you) can. As an individual user/member, it's pretty easy, you can just logon and logoff as you want without cost or future obligation to the community. That is not an option for us. It’s our choice, so we ask for and expect no pity from anyone, but we do ask that you try to keep that in perspective when you visit and post. Most of you do anyway.

I have also learned a few other things, not the least of which is the administrating this board (any board actually) will not win you many friends. It’s almost impossible to just be a member and administrator at the same time. Not sure anyone can appreciate the difficulty in that. I'm not very good at it, and unfortunately, it has turned me into "mostly Admin, less Member". People (friends, you know who you are), told me it would happen. Sadly, you were right.

Also remember, your feedback is important, as some the best things/changes that have been made around here have come directly from our members, not us so much. Keep the suggestions coming.

Thanks for listening, and the post is open for comments if you care too.

[Rockledge]

You have created a valuable resource and, more importantly, (for me) a fun place to visit and share my views. Kudos for a job well done

[Neil]

I was thinking of making my next TR a "trip preparation" report. (a TP report )

To me a good trip is like riding the crest of a wave and I probably write many of them in that manner, as if I just got out of my car and went for a nice little stroll in the Sawtooth Range. That wave, however is the result of all sorts of meticulous planning and contains past experience.

[Rik]

As a member that has been here from the start and the person that has contributed the most trip reports to this site I feel I should comment. It is also quite obvious that my trip reports are part of the "reason" for this discussion. Thanks, Tim for clarifying your view on TRs.

I just want to ask, again, that people communicate directly with the writer if you are offended by something he/she/me says. This would at least resolve many misunderstandings rather quickly. There is no reason to waste Tim and Neil's time with PM's that say "Rik is picking on me". PM me. Since no one has tried this I don't really see how anyone can say it won't work. If you are questioning my motives please just know that it's all about the laugh/fun.

Interestingly, to me at least, is that without honest trip reports many of the safety discussions on the various boards this year would not have happened and therefore less learning would take place. Example: If no one ever mentioned dropping their pack in trip reports would any of the discussions around the pros/cons of dropping one's pack have occured?

[stoopid]

Originally Posted by Mavs00

I have also learned a few other things, not the least of which is the administrating this board (any board actually) will not win you many friends. It’s almost impossible to just be a member and administrator at the same time. Not sure anyone can appreciate the difficulty in that. I'm not very good at it, and unfortunately, it has turned me into "mostly Admin, less Member". People (friends, you know who you are), told me it would happen. Sadly, you were right.

Reason 1,043,761 I am no longer involved in the administration of any public forums (I do still admin a very small, private one for some computing friends). If there's a balance out there someone is holding the key to that magic forumula very close. It's also one of the reasons why it's so rare for a single owner to hold on to a forum for more than X number of years. If they're at all active on the forum as a posting member then they tend to get bitter and eventually resentful at all the "freeloaders" (members) who give them flack for things not going their way. It eventually shows in the tone and posts of the admin(s)/moderator(s). Seen this occur a bunch of times. Usually a full change of the guard occurs. It takes longer with smaller forums, but I've seen some larger forums change hands 2 or 3 times in 5 or 6 years. It's not at all uncommon.

Hang in there. Despite my protests I think you're doing a much better job than I was. Maybe you'll find your own key to making this work and still find some fun in it.

Originally Posted by Rik

If you are questioning my motives please just know that it's all about the laugh/fun.

I guess my only gripe with this is the nature and frequency of your sarcasm (mocking, whatever it's called). You seem to thoroughly enjoy it as you've done it several times knowing very well it's at the expense of others and their beliefs.

If you want people to laugh, tell a joke. Don't make serious topics into comedy material or use comedy as a disguise to take pot-shots at others you may not like or agree with.

Originally Posted by Rik

Interestingly, to me at least, is that without honest trip reports many of the safety discussions on the various boards this year would not have happened and therefore less learning would take place. Example: If no one ever mentioned dropping their pack in trip reports would any of the discussions around the pros/cons of dropping one's pack have occured?

I don't think Tim (or Neil I'm assuming) are saying that. They're suggesting that we use the TRs as educational tools but not as pulpits to mock or belittle those with differing viewpoints on whatever issues.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by stoopid

If there's a balance out there someone is holding the key to that magic forumula very close. It's also one of the reasons why it's so rare for a single owner to hold on to a forum for more than X number of years.

I think I have found the formula. I bask in the positive commentary and deflect all the negative crap to Tim so he can deal with it. So far so good.

[Mavs00]

Originally Posted by Stoopid

Reason 1,043,761 I am no longer involved in the administration of any public forums (I do still admin a very small, private one for some computing friends). If there's a balance out there someone is holding the key to that magic forumula very close. It's also one of the reasons why it's so rare for a single owner to hold on to a forum for more than X number of years. If they're at all active on the forum as a posting member then they tend to get bitter and eventually resentful at all the "freeloaders" (members) who give them flack for things not going their way. It eventually shows in the tone and posts of the admin(s)/moderator(s). Seen this occur a bunch of times. Usually a full change of the guard occurs. It takes longer with smaller forums, but I've seen some larger forums change hands 2 or 3 times in 5 or 6 years. It's not at all uncommon.

Hang in there. Despite my protests I think you're doing a much better job than I was. Maybe you'll find your own key to making this work and still find some fun in it.

Very insightful Kevin. Thanks, you articulated a lot of what I wanted to say. I think a lot of people have noticed that change in me. I have, not real happy/or proud of it, as much as I can't help it either. I've seen it happen to other owners/admins too. Unfortunately, I'm not going anywhere though (sorry folks ), but I do need to focus harder on finding a better balance point.

As for the TR's, I don't advocate that people do anything specific with them. Some will choose to educate, some will use them to be funny, some will use them to share a special moment. Some will use them for any combination of the three. I think I'm okay with any of them, as is Neil. The reports are unique, as are the people that write them. I guess what I'm saying is we just need to realize that it should be the sharer's choice on how to share. The choice the reader has is to whether to take any value from it, or disregard it.

Also, I have noticed an occasional "mocking" tone to some of the TR threads (I even participated in them). We should ALL strive to limit/eliminate that, and that's what I outlined in the first post. Also, we should strive to "have a little thicker skin" too because, I think over-sensitivity does play into it. I tend to do this at times to.

[Mavs00]

Originally Posted by Neil

I think I have found the formula. I bask in the positive commentary and deflect all the negative crap to Tim so he can deal with it. So far so good.

Your welcome

[Rik]

Originally Posted by stoopid

I guess my only gripe with this is the nature and frequency of your sarcasm (mocking, whatever it's called). You seem to thoroughly enjoy it as you've done it several times knowing very well it's at the expense of others and their beliefs.

If you want people to laugh, tell a joke. Don't make serious topics into comedy material or use comedy as a disguise to take pot-shots at others you may not like or agree with.

Sarcasm/mocking...

I don't label it anything but yes I'm enjoying myself. That is why I come here. Nothing I write is out of dislike for anyone as I'll reserve negative feelings like that for people that have done harm to me or those I care for. I certainly don't dislike anyone for what they post on a hiking forum. Sorry.
And I don't see what great "expense" it has been to anyone else to read my trip reports?

As to what you perceive as "pot-shots in disguise" * I see differently. When people express their "beliefs" as though they were fact or a rule I see that as someone trying to shove their "way" down my throat. When that happens my nature is to chew on it a bit and then spit it back. There is no venom in it. I'm just not going to be force fed someone else's "beliefs".


*(what a great album title that would make)

[Mavs00]

I suppose we'll have to let go at that, before another thread bites the dust and goes south of swiss cheese. This one will could head there quick, and I suppose I said what I wanted to say, so......... If you must, you can continue the dialog in private, as previously requested about 10 posts up.

Anyways, there you have it.