North Dome and Sherrill - 4/21/12 - Page 3

Doodles · 04-25-2012, 07:09 PM

Here's an idea.

If all the bushwhackers flag their hikes with bright fluorescent ribbon, other hikers will know where not to step and thus eliminate the creation of HERD PATHS.

Oh yeah. Don't forget to post a list of the words that are NOT allowed in a trip report.

Mike S · 04-25-2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnAClearDay

Another option would be to periodically move the location of the can on a given peak (perhaps every 5-10 years). Paths that had formed to previous locations would recover and eventually disappear. Most of the bushwhack summits are fairly large allowing for alternate locations...

Sounds good, it's not like they're at the summit or anything.

Zer0-G · 04-26-2012, 09:09 AM

FWIW - AMC has long been a very very strong proponent of Leave No Trace. With respect to off trail wanderings their goal is to teach people to leave no trace. If you go off trail no one should be able to discern that anyone has been where you have been. Yes, leaving no trace. When it comes to traveling in a group the dictum is to never walk in single file. Always spread out. This causes less impact as repeated trampling in a single spot or in a single line causes the most visible impact and most damage to the terrain.

I have been on AMC hikes in the Whites and in the Catskills where it was heavily frowned upon if one would walk around a puddle or flooded section of trail because it caused the trail to be widened and caused damage to the terrain on each side of the trail.

Whilst bushwhacking I have mostly been in groups doing the single file thing. Occasionally, and with certain friends, we have tendencies to spread out. I must say, at those times, the AMC dictums frequently cross my mind.

I was on a bushwhack with a group of friends from this site. I was in the lead for a while, and at the time my style was mostly to plow ahead bee lining through whatever was in front of me. The individual behind me remarked unhappily that I was going through all the thick stuff to which I honestly replied. "Sorry, but you don't have to follow me, after all, it is a bushwhack, make your own way."

Looks like I am going to have to put my boot where that philosophy is more consistently...

As for herd paths...nobody is twisting your arm to use them and for me, just for me, if I am in a group I will use them, perhaps even seek them out, because they are already there and it will lessen the impact especially if the single file mentality exists. But, when I can, I will encourage to spread it out to lessen the impact on the terrain.

Just my opinion....

Maria · 04-26-2012, 12:03 PM

I don’t think a caring discussion about the changes in the Catskills is a bad discussion to be had – better than talking about the latest reality show….. For those who find it annoying or unfun, just skip the thread.

No one has the right to presume they are the ultimate authority, but offer a constructive argument as some here have if you disagree. I’m sure those who cared about the Dacks and had to make decisions about a herd path policy had plenty of these discussions when they were facing the same issues. They just did it the old fashioned way while hiking or in meetings.

Perhaps change is inevitable and needs to be accepted, but I would compare it to another big hot topic argument which, while it makes our discussion of herd paths serious small potatoes, I think is relevant nevertheless: climate change. If we all try to do a little bit, perhaps it will make a difference. If everyone just gives up and says it’s a lost cause and decides to live life to the fullest while you can….well, that just seems pretty sad.

Pathgrinder · 04-26-2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

No one has the right to presume they are the ultimate authority, but offer a constructive argument as some here have if you disagree. .

After all the discussion the past couple of days, I have given this a lot of thought. I think the best solution is to pave the herd paths adding curbs & drains to stop the erosion problem and a handrail for handicap accessibility.

No Really!

Jay H · 04-26-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

I have been on AMC hikes in the Whites and in the Catskills where it was heavily frowned upon if one would walk around a puddle or flooded section of trail because it caused the trail to be widened and caused damage to the terrain on each side of the trail.

Have you ever really wondered what is a heavy frown? Does one frown weigh more than another and can one actually control the weight of one's own frown? Would this be beneficial to boxers who have to make a certain weight to be able to box? Would a heavy frown be detrimental to one's hiking ability?

I now know the secret to winning the Escarpment trail run. Run around the puddles and as all the other competitors (who are AMC members do their "heavy frown") I will be ahead of the pack by miles...

Jay

Maria · 04-26-2012, 03:35 PM

Well, wasn't exactly looking for that type of construct(ion).....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathgrinder

After all the discussion the past couple of days, I have given this a lot of thought. I think the best solution is to pave the herd paths adding curbs & drains to stop the erosion problem and a handrail for handicap accessibility.

No Really!

Pathgrinder · 04-26-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

Well, wasn't exactly looking for that type of construct(ion).....

Sorry, hiking tomorrow

and a little giddy this afternoon I guess.....

!

Mike S · 04-27-2012, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay H

Have you ever really wondered what is a heavy frown? Does one frown weigh more than another and can one actually control the weight of one's own frown? Would this be beneficial to boxers who have to make a certain weight to be able to box? Would a heavy frown be detrimental to one's hiking ability?

I now know the secret to winning the Escarpment trail run. Run around the puddles and as all the other competitors (who are AMC members do their "heavy frown") I will be ahead of the pack by miles...

Jay

That's not gonna work. Ben Nephew floats above the puddles.

MargaretM · 04-27-2012, 10:12 PM

Tongue in cheek - I had so much fun reading about "heard paths" and Pathgrinders "nerd baths". There's plenty of room for many "points of view" up in the (closely packed) balsam layer.

CatskillKev · 04-28-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoTrace

My position on herd paths is similar to TFRs: If we're going to have substantial numbers of people trudging around on fragile "trailless" summits looking for the holy grail (canisters), we might as well try to keep them in one narrowly-defined space - ie. a herd path.

I revisited these very same thoughts last Saturday on North Dome shortly after TFR and LARGE group were there, as I found myself flailing around w/ partner looking for the high point. Now repeat that scenario endlessly, and you've pretty much trampled much of the fragile summit vegetation. Better to have, and to follow a herd path, than adhere to some philosophical construct that sounds better on paper than in reality.

Theory vs. reality. My thought was that none of this stuff has to be talked about, and maybe it would have a positive effect out there. The reality, though, is that it really is about lots of use. I think some might misunderstand me and think that I'm saying not to use the herd paths. The reality is that possibly everyone uses them, so it may truly be that nothing can be done. It is what it is, I guess.

Pathgrinder · 04-29-2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatskillKev

Theory vs. reality. . I think some might misunderstand me....

We're all misunderstood, misinformed and misled. It's a plot by the MAN to keep us down, man!

BandannaMan · 04-30-2012, 04:01 PM

Wow, this thread is still going? It's like a herd path of forum posts, all on one thread. Maybe soon this thread will be an officially unmaintained, but in reality maintained, but not blazed post, I mean herd thread, ... well maybe a herd post... - my head hurts now!

Pathgrinder · 04-30-2012, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BandannaMan

Wow, this thread is still going? It's like a herd path of forum posts, all on one thread. Maybe soon this thread will be an officially unmaintained, but in reality maintained, but not blazed post, I mean herd thread, ... well maybe a herd post... - my head hurts now!

This thread will live on into infinity. The funny part is we all agree now!

NoTrace · 05-01-2012, 04:36 PM

" but I believe larger groups are more responsible to herd path construction than smaller groups..."

Like organized trail runs in the Adirondacks such as the Great Adirondack Trail Run or the Wakely Dam Ultra?

Rockledge · 05-01-2012, 05:19 PM

I believe deer are responsible for herd path construction.

mudhook · 05-01-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockledge

I believe deer are responsible for herd path construction.

You are correct. The critters most often seen in the mts. are packs of woofs and coyoties , gaggles of geese, solitary wolverines, covies or bevies of quail, and so forth. Deer form the only herds. Thank goodness the Woolymamouths live elsewhere.

hardcharger · 05-08-2012, 10:07 PM

nice to see this thread because I'm heading back up to the 35 land this weekend for ND/Sherill.
But not happy to see silly talk about herd paths. I think herd paths are good. why trample vegetation down all over creating multiple paths when one will do just fine. herd paths are inevitable in many places, just accept them for what they are. in general hiking trails cause a mess with erosion, some places much more than others. it's part of what happens. it's no use pretending that "we" are protecting the pristine wilderness, that only happens if we stay out of it.

hoping to get these peaks in before the nettles are high.

i was saddled with a pretty bad knee much of the winter, but it looks like I'm back in the game again.

TFR · 05-09-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcharger

hoping to get these peaks in before the nettles are high.

This past weekend, the nettles were no higher than 8 inches. I'm not sure how fast they grow, but you'd better hurry!

04-26-2012, 09:09 AM	#43
Zer0-G Dances w/Giant Hogweeds Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Valhalla, NY Posts: 1,350	FWIW - AMC has long been a very very strong proponent of Leave No Trace. With respect to off trail wanderings their goal is to teach people to leave no trace. If you go off trail no one should be able to discern that anyone has been where you have been. Yes, leaving no trace. When it comes to traveling in a group the dictum is to never walk in single file. Always spread out. This causes less impact as repeated trampling in a single spot or in a single line causes the most visible impact and most damage to the terrain. I have been on AMC hikes in the Whites and in the Catskills where it was heavily frowned upon if one would walk around a puddle or flooded section of trail because it caused the trail to be widened and caused damage to the terrain on each side of the trail. Whilst bushwhacking I have mostly been in groups doing the single file thing. Occasionally, and with certain friends, we have tendencies to spread out. I must say, at those times, the AMC dictums frequently cross my mind. I was on a bushwhack with a group of friends from this site. I was in the lead for a while, and at the time my style was mostly to plow ahead bee lining through whatever was in front of me. The individual behind me remarked unhappily that I was going through all the thick stuff to which I honestly replied. "Sorry, but you don't have to follow me, after all, it is a bushwhack, make your own way." Looks like I am going to have to put my boot where that philosophy is more consistently... As for herd paths...nobody is twisting your arm to use them and for me, just for me, if I am in a group I will use them, perhaps even seek them out, because they are already there and it will lessen the impact especially if the single file mentality exists. But, when I can, I will encourage to spread it out to lessen the impact on the terrain. Just my opinion.... __________________ Natural environment sustains the life of all beings universally. Trees are referred to in accounts of the principal events of Buddha's life. His mother leaned against a tree for support as she gave birth to him. He attained enlightenment seated beneath a tree, and finally passed away as trees stood witness overhead. H.H. D. L. "experience is something you don't get until after you need it, that's the problem." - Joe Simpson As I was walking - I saw a sign there And that sign said - No tresspassin' But on the other side - it didn't say nuthin' Now that side was made for you and me! - Woody Guthrie - Charter Member of the Tongue-In-Cheek Club (TIC)

04-30-2012, 04:01 PM	#53
BandannaMan Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 35	Wow, this thread is still going? It's like a herd path of forum posts, all on one thread. Maybe soon this thread will be an officially unmaintained, but in reality maintained, but not blazed post, I mean herd thread, ... well maybe a herd post... - my head hurts now! __________________ CAT35: 31/39, ADK46: 11/46 LT: 65%, AT: 28%

05-01-2012, 05:19 PM	#56
Rockledge Where's the Beast? Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cedar Grove Posts: 1,409	I believe deer are responsible for herd path construction. __________________ Walking is the best possible exercise. Habituate yourself to walk very fast.~Thomas Jefferson Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.~Steven Wright

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04-25-2012, 07:09 PM	#41
Doodles Commander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New Paltz Posts: 743	Here's an idea. If all the bushwhackers flag their hikes with bright fluorescent ribbon, other hikers will know where not to step and thus eliminate the creation of HERD PATHS. Oh yeah. Don't forget to post a list of the words that are NOT allowed in a trip report.

04-26-2012, 12:03 PM	#44
Maria Out on the Jay Range Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Irvington, NY Posts: 808	I don’t think a caring discussion about the changes in the Catskills is a bad discussion to be had – better than talking about the latest reality show….. For those who find it annoying or unfun, just skip the thread. No one has the right to presume they are the ultimate authority, but offer a constructive argument as some here have if you disagree. I’m sure those who cared about the Dacks and had to make decisions about a herd path policy had plenty of these discussions when they were facing the same issues. They just did it the old fashioned way while hiking or in meetings. Perhaps change is inevitable and needs to be accepted, but I would compare it to another big hot topic argument which, while it makes our discussion of herd paths serious small potatoes, I think is relevant nevertheless: climate change. If we all try to do a little bit, perhaps it will make a difference. If everyone just gives up and says it’s a lost cause and decides to live life to the fullest while you can….well, that just seems pretty sad.

04-27-2012, 10:12 PM	#50
MargaretM Hiker/Skier Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kingston NY Posts: 6	Tongue in cheek - I had so much fun reading about "heard paths" and Pathgrinders "nerd baths". There's plenty of room for many "points of view" up in the (closely packed) balsam layer.

05-01-2012, 04:36 PM	#55
NoTrace Running Against TrailRuns Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Mechanicville, NY Posts: 185	" but I believe larger groups are more responsible to herd path construction than smaller groups..." Like organized trail runs in the Adirondacks such as the Great Adirondack Trail Run or the Wakely Dam Ultra?

05-08-2012, 10:07 PM	#58
hardcharger Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Moscow, Pa near Scranton Posts: 65	nice to see this thread because I'm heading back up to the 35 land this weekend for ND/Sherill. But not happy to see silly talk about herd paths. I think herd paths are good. why trample vegetation down all over creating multiple paths when one will do just fine. herd paths are inevitable in many places, just accept them for what they are. in general hiking trails cause a mess with erosion, some places much more than others. it's part of what happens. it's no use pretending that "we" are protecting the pristine wilderness, that only happens if we stay out of it. hoping to get these peaks in before the nettles are high. i was saddled with a pretty bad knee much of the winter, but it looks like I'm back in the game again.

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