North Dome and Sherrill - 4/21/12

[TFR]

We led a group of 12, starting from the Western end of the Devil's Path. We deliberately left the trail before the col, trying to avoid most of the ledges. This was not entirely successful, as we seemingly had to skirt right a few times when I wanted to go left, but we eventually found a nice herd path that led us straight to the canister. The ammo box is still there, concealed under a few rocks. While it is a memorial to a local man who passed away, it is still in a Wilderness area. Eventually, I decided it was not my place to pack it out ...

On we went towards Sherrill. Well sort of. I started following one of the many herd paths that lead away from the summit. As a wise man once told me "There are 359 wrong ways to leave a summit!" Well, almost. But I soon realized I was not heading towards Sherrill. I caught a glimpse of a nearby mountain WAY around to my left. So I had veered too far North. I corrected, but the damage was done. We had to side hill for a VERY LONG TIME! North Dome is shaped like a hot dog, and we were walking around it, on the long edge. Eventually we were in the col, and got our bearings back. I found the herd path that leads up thru the rocks and we again walked straight to the canister.

Once again, leaving the summit, I struck out a little too far North, and we sidehilled down a long way. During the descent, it started to sprinkle intermittently several times. I got tired of taking off my poncho and putting it back on and eventually just left it off, as it was warm enough to endure a few sprinkles. Wanting to make sure we were not headed too far off course, I called a halt and we got out GPSs, maps, compasses, and smart phones, and confirmed our position. We were heading towards the car, but a little off the regular line. So we decided to head straight for the car, down more steeply than before. As we were heading towards the dreaded gully that I knew to be in front of us, what should appear but a VERY NICE path! It parallels the stream all the way back to the power lines! It really is an old road, not a path, but it really lifted everyone's moods knowing we were headed directly back to the cars that we had spotted earlier in the day. I think we caught this path around 2000'. I was aware of a road on the other side of the gully, but not this one. Next time, I'm going to follow it up as far as it goes, maybe we can avoid some nettles!

Speaking of plants and animals, we saw zillions of flowers, including Trillium, Trout Lilies, spring beauties so dense they looked like it had snowed, a deer, a grouse, and many other birds. But back to the nettles. I did not see a single nettle plant all day! There were a few patches of pricker bushes. Many places along the route yesterday are THICK with young saplings.

So while I never felt lost today, I did make it a little more interesting for my fellow hikers than I had to, but finding the path was a +1 in my book!

[mudhook]

North Dome is shaped like a hot dog???
I , too, learn something new every day

[Jay H]

Originally Posted by mudhook

North Dome is shaped like a hot dog???
I , too, learn something new every day

Unless you're a vegetarian, then it's shaped like a tofu dog..

So what is sleeping Lion and the many little bumps between Halcott and SE Vly?


Jay

[CatskillKev]

Originally Posted by TFR

but we eventually found a nice herd path that led us straight to the canister.

I know you're speaking as an individual here Tom, but you do list yourself as a Vice President of the 3500 Club, so just wondering, is the 3500 Club now pro-herd path? The Club used to be anti-herd path and members were encouraged to avoid them. I would hope that the position of the club has not changed.

[TFR]

Originally Posted by CatskillKev

I know you're speaking as an individual here Tom, but you do list yourself as a Vice President of the 3500 Club, so just wondering, is the 3500 Club now pro-herd path? The Club used to be anti-herd path and members were encouraged to avoid them. I would hope that the position of the club has not changed.

I have no problem using old roads and herd paths that form inevitably when people are pinched into narrow areas between ledges, and near summits. I do not go out of my way to find them, and I do not always follow them, because I do not always trust that they go where I want to go.

I am not sure the club has an official position about herd paths.

[Pathgrinder]

I'm new to this forum and certainly not a Catskill hiking expert but, doesn't avoiding herd paths just create more herd paths? Seems like a Catch 22 situation to me. I guess I've always questioned the trailless peak concept from an environmental standpoint. Again, not an environmental expert and not looking to get into a big dialogue here. It just seems like more damage is done tramping all over the place than staying on a defined path. JMHO.

[CatskillKev]

Originally Posted by TFR

I have no problem using old roads and herd paths that form inevitably when people are pinched into narrow areas between ledges, and near summits. I do not go out of my way to find them, and I do not always follow them, because I do not always trust that they go where I want to go.

I am not sure the club has an official position about herd paths.

I understand your reply, Tom. My point really is that the herd paths don't need to be mentioned in trip reports. Yes, you may think that they influenced your hike in a good way, but it is not good to read a bushwhack report and come away thinking that the major goal is to follow a herd path as much as possible. We as hikers have to realize that the end product of this thinking is no untrailed 35 just like there are no untrailed 46 in the Adirondacks. It would mean no difficulty finding the canister (except maybe in winter) and it might mean losing the canisters. In fact, the DEC could make a decision based on these herd paths at any time. I would think that the club works with the DEC and has a position on herd paths..... There really is no such thing as a nice herd path, unless you want to civilize the wilderness.

In answer to Pathgrinder (heck of a name for this discussion), admittedly this topic is important for aesthetic and philosophical (and fun to find the canister) reasons. You are correct that if people use different routes, more vegetation gets trampled. Its just that the distinct herd path is what will civilize the entire experience for the hiker, and the hike will no longer be a bushwhack. Some people probably wish all the peaks were trailed, and they are getting their wish, but what about the people that appreciate that you can hike many of the highest Catskill peaks and still get the wilderness experience of having no distinct path?

[Zer0-G]

Originally Posted by TFR

"There are 359 wrong ways to leave a summit!"

Oh Man! - No wonder I'm all confused. I thought there were 360 right ways to leave a summit.

And after all these years ....

One more thing ....

Originally Posted by TFR

North Dome is shaped like a hot dog

Would that be with or without the bun?

Originally Posted by TFR

Wanting to make sure we were not headed too far off course, I called a halt and we got out GPSs, maps, compasses, and smart phones, and confirmed our position.

Did you know that you can use a sewing needle suspended from a thread as a compass? Just in case you might need an additional point of reference along with all the others mentioned above.
You know what they say, "Can't have too many directional devices in your pack." It's ultralight too. Can also be used to repair rips in your ponchos. (you would also need a small bar magnet too, but it's a small price to pay for the added security against getting lost. )

[TFR]

Personally, I would not weep if the canisters were removed. Canisters have been removed before (on Table at least). But neither would I rejoice if a trail was sanctioned to Rocky. I try to see things from both sides.

There was a good bit of discussion on my hike about herd paths. The participants experience level was all over the map. Some were in favor of herd paths, and others were against them. Most of the participants were happy to see them when they showed up. I think they act as a confidence booster. But I only followed the herd paths because I knew they were leading in the right direction. If I suspected a trail did not lead to the summit, I would avoid it.

I think the system in the ADKs works pretty well right now. Many unofficial trails are actually assigned official maintainers. That might sound a little odd, but the maintainers have a specific set of do's and dont's. They do not maintain the path to the level of an official trail, but they do remove blowdown that keeps twisty mazes from forming. Having one 'good' path up a mountain instead of 10 'bad' ones is a good thing in my mind. It does not 'ruin the wilderness' to create a trail to the top of a mountain. And I really don't think mentioning a herd path in a TR is a bad thing. As I said, I only took advantage of paths that inevitably form near summits and that form as a result of natural features. Pathgrinder, your point about avoiding a herd path and creating a new one comes in here. If everyone avoided the well worn herd paths (something that will NEVER happen), we would just end up with other well worn herd paths.

No one is stopping anyone from bushwhacking up Hunter, Slide, Wittenburg (or any of the other trailed peaks).

To elaborate, we deliberately chose a route that I did not expect to see herd paths on at the start. The fact that we found one near the summit was almost inevitable. When I left North Dome, I did not follow the herd path that comes up from Sherrill. But once I found a path going up Sherrill, I followed it, as I knew that it navigated the ledges. Would you have me lead 11 other people straight up the cliffs? When I left Sherrill, I did not follow the herd path that meanders back towards the ridge line. Finding an old road near the end of the hike and using it is not making anything any worse. The makers of the road can answer for that. Finally, I did not post any pictures, track logs or coordinates, as I have seen here many times before.

[Zer0-G]

Originally Posted by Jay H

Unless you're a vegetarian, then it's shaped like a tofu dog..

So what is sleeping Lion and the many little bumps between Halcott and SE Vly?


Jay

It could also be shaped like a Corn Dog.
Or an almond cookie shaped like a hot dog!!!

http://aperiodictableblog.com/?p=1781

Wow, the possibilities are endless...

[Pathgrinder]

CatskillKev and all, Just a clarification - the name Pathgrinder is based on the mental aspect of grinding out a tough day on the trail, not the physical act of tearing up the earth. It is pretty humorous how it ties into this thread though!

I think you make all good points in your post but, the harsh reality is that with the increased popularity of hiking/peak-bagging in all mountain areas, it may be time to re-evaluate the true cost of not having a trail. I am not basing this on any hard data, just my own feeling so, not very scientific for sure. You are not going to stop people from coming to the peaks so you might as well control the impact. Just food for thought. A true wilderness experience might still be had in an outlying area that doesn't appear on a to-do list promoted by a hiking organization or club. Like most good things, including the AT, it becomes a victim of it's own popularity.

[CatskillHiker]

After completing some lists, I decided that I wanted to strike out on my own and do what we did when I was a kid. We walked wherever we wanted to go starting early in the morning and getting home by supper. Our parents knew everyone who owned the land for miles around so that was not an issue. We walked on woods roads and paths at times. Most of the time we just walked through the woods. Sometimes we had an objective or destination and other times we just wanted to see where we would end up.

I have decided that just walking somewhere without a specific named peak at the end can be very rewarding. I always check out the and I may cross so that I do not trespass. Connie and I started out on Moon haw and walked up a steep slope to the top of a hill. We got a great view of Friday and Balsam Cap without very hitting a path or trail. I followed a road toward Samuel's Point and then headed off the road to the actual destination. Along the way I found some paths and used them as I saw fit. I hiked the trail at Kelly Hollow and then walked up a hill to find myself near the top of Millbrook Ridge. I could go on!

Many of the maintained trails that DO NOT go to named peaks are not so well maintained. The Huckleberry Loop near Margaret Ville is a challenging hike but the lower part of the loop is growing in agai8n and the blazes are few and far between. I hiked over 12 miles on this trail and did not see another hiker. I felt like I was in the wilderness despite crossing a side road.

[CatskillKev]

You can take the boy out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the boy. Tom, you're a good guy, but I wish that you didn't think that a well-manicured (Inge uses the word sanitized) trail is best in all situations. Apparently you are not willing to avoid the word "herd path" in reports, so you will not understand. There is a good rule on this forum, but for some reason when I click forum rules now, I get nothing. Are we now without rules???

And to Pathgrinder, yes, at some point this list-driven community will change the landscape forever, unless the herd paths get filled with brush. I am a little bit blind to the effects because I usually stick to trails when there is no snow--to avoid impact and ticks. The grid is a --insert adjective-- influence in my opinion, especially when someone gets list-driven, which we all know happens a lot. I have not given up on the Catskills, yet. If we would all try to avoid the bushwhacks for 3 seasons, we wouldn't have to worry about this stuff. And by the way, the bushwhacks are actually easier in the winter, in some ways, and the 3500 Club will accept hikes for regular membership done in winter.

[CatskillKev]

As far as the Adirondacks goes, what has occurred there was not the initial intent. It was forced on the mountains by the erosive power of feet, as we all know. On the other hand, the Adirondacks, I believe, are a bit different because I think that they have naturally thicker brush, so there will be fewer people wishing there were no herd paths in the Adirondacks, I think.....

[Pathgrinder]

Originally Posted by CatskillKev

And to Pathgrinder, yes, at some point this list-driven community will change the landscape forever, unless the herd paths get filled with brush. I am a little bit blind to the effects because I usually stick to trails when there is no snow--to avoid impact and ticks. The grid is a --insert adjective-- influence in my opinion, especially when someone gets list-driven, which we all know happens a lot. I have not given up on the Catskills, yet. If we would all try to avoid the bushwhacks for 3 seasons, we wouldn't have to worry about this stuff. And by the way, the bushwhacks are actually easier in the winter, in some ways, and the 3500 Club will accept hikes for regular membership done in winter.

I respect your opinion and don't necessarily disagree with you. This is an issue I have been trying to come to terms with for awhile and this dialogue is very helpful to me personally. If nothing else, I may not use the phrase "herd path" in a trip report again...

[CatskillKev]

Originally Posted by Pathgrinder

I respect your opinion and don't necessarily disagree with you. This is an issue I have been trying to come to terms with for awhile and this dialogue is very helpful to me personally. If nothing else, I may not use the phrase "herd path" in a trip report again...

Thank you.

[Zer0-G]

Originally Posted by Pathgrinder

I'm new to this forum ..... not looking to get into a big dialogue here.

Next to almost impossible to do

[Pathgrinder]

Originally Posted by Zer0-G

Next to almost impossible to do

Please note that I have removed the term "herd path" from my trip report - "Two Peaks & a Monster Sandwich". I'm new here and didn't mean to offend anyone....

[TFR]

Originally Posted by CatskillKev

You can take the boy out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the boy. Tom, you're a good guy, but I wish that you didn't think that a well-manicured (Inga uses the word sanitized) trail is best in all situations. Apparently you are not willing to avoid the word "herd path" in reports, so you will not understand. There is a good rule on this forum, but for some reason when I click forum rules now, I get nothing. Are we now without rules???

And to Pathgrinder, yes, at some point this list-driven community will change the landscape forever, unless the herd paths get filled with brush. I am a little bit blind to the effects because I usually stick to trails when there is no snow--to avoid impact and ticks. The grid is a --insert adjective-- influence in my opinion, especially when someone gets list-driven, which we all know happens a lot. I have not given up on the Catskills, yet. If we would all try to avoid the bushwhacks for 3 seasons, we wouldn't have to worry about this stuff. And by the way, the bushwhacks are actually easier in the winter, in some ways, and the 3500 Club will accept hikes for regular membership done in winter.

I didn't say it was ALWAYS best.

I will agree to follow the rules, and modify my posts, if I have been violating some of them.

I ain't from the city! I may live in a small suburb right now, but some of the places I've lived backed right up to large tracks of forest. And there were no marked trails!

[billandjudy]

I'm hiking on herd paths this week..maybe I'll link it to a map...This is one of reasons my visits and TR's to the forum are decreasing...The pettiness gets tiring...Interesting but tiring...Herd paths..logging roads..old railways...are all over the Catskills...You can seldom 'wack anywhere w/o seeing traces of previous visitors...I'm pretty sure there are folks other than us that a wandering around the woods on well known local paths....Gotta chill folks...Maybe I'll go find Tom's Road