Trailess 46er Peaks - What can we learn from them?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by TFR

The last 2 winters, when I did about 30 peaks, still saw a significant amount of trailbreaking. It also featured following Pinpin at least once!

You didn't do any trailbreaking on Hurricane last October by any chance did you?

[pete_hickey]

Originally Posted by Mavs00

there are questions as to whether things should have been handled differently when it came to the "trailless 46". For instance, by maintaining the fallacy that these peaks were trailess, it encouraged continued use of multiple, or crappily designed trails that ultimately required the 46ers, DEC (perhaps others) to go in and correct issues that are not becoming apparent.

First of all, you have to be clear on what you are talking about when you talk about protection. If you're talking about proventing erosion, ugly trails, protecting vegetation, it can be solved by work. Hardening a trail so that it is almost concrete keeps everything in good shape. Taking this argument to the limit, and what should be done is design a path ot each and every mountain. Pave the most popular. Build walkways around fragile alpine vegetation. You can find a huge wooden walkway across a bog on Mt Albert in Gaspé

On the other hand, do you want to protect the wilderness. In that case, the solution is to eliminate the people. Note, that in this cse, protecting the wilderness and protecting the environment are somewhat in conflict with each other.

Finally, there is a third area. Those who use the mountains as a 'proving ground'. It is tough to do, and it is a badge of honor that I did it, and that it shouldn't be made easier for others.

Note that most people have a combination of the three, however by seperating them, the problems/conflicts become more obvious.

Perhaps if, when the spike of activity was noticed to be going up, if there had been an increased effort (who knows what) that would have prevented or limited things like multiple confusing herd paths on Street/Nye,

Know what caused those multiple herd paths on Street & Nye? 46ers who thought that the herd paths were making things too easy. People were reaching the summit without using a map or compass. The false paths were created to confuse less able hikers.

continued use/erosion on crappy paths like Cliff, Seward, etc. to now having be face with the (IMO) embarrassing reality of accepting an illegally cut path (Calkins Brook) as the "preferred" route to S,E,D. All f which now requires "official" action or attention

Most of this is lack of funds and time (really, the same thing). Had the means been there, all trailless peaks would have been done about 10 years ago. The Cliff cliff problem wasn't there 10 years ago. Before the work started, it took quite a few years for the compromise to be made on how things should be done. Ideally, people would have started BEFORE the problems became apparent.... Will we learn from history?

So.... would earlier intervention by the 46ers (or any other advocacy group) on these peaks, outweighed, on a physical level, the loss of our "romantic" notion of climbing trailess peaks?

The problem is that there are (and will be) people wanting different things. Remember that 40 or so years ago, the 46ers had a vote to disolve the group. To this day, there are people complaining because we are maintaining the herd paths.... Note that the way we do it is a COMPROMISE between those wanting nothing to be done, and those wanting a marked maintained trail Note that canisters are(were) something wanted by those wanting to protect the summit (stops wandering around looking for the true summit) as well as those wanting 'proof of ability".

So, I ask you what do you want to maintain, and what do you want to sacrifice in order to maintain it, and how will you compromise with others wanting something else.

Me? The older I get, the more I want to protect WILDERNESS. There is so little left of it on this planet, and what little there is, is going fast. Bit by bit.

46ers......but do they outweigh the fact that some people are encouraged to climb peaks. Keeping in mind that the OVERWHELMING majority that use the peaks are not 46ers, or even aspiring 46ers and 46er efforts directly impact their use.

I'll use the argument that Ketch used when there were votes to disolve the 46ers.

1) People will climb the 46 without the club. Look at the growth in the HH and there is no club.

2) What would happen if the 46ers would vote to disolve themselves? That would happen if the majority were wilderness protectors, and thought that would be the best way to protect it. A new club would most likely spring up, because it would not be a unamamous vote. This new club would be made up of the same people, without those wanting to protect the wilderness.

How bout this site,...

I use this site (and 'the other') as a way of 'preaching my gospel' (and also for jokes). I know that I have not reached the majority of people out there, but I have reached some. This site has allowed me to get others to think more about preserving wilderness. Have the some I've reached make up for the increased 'problems' it is causing in other areas???

Uhhh.. Thanks tim... Just made me waste my lunch hour.

[Neil]

Anthropocentric or biocentric ?

This is a hard one. I assume, Pete, that you espouse the former view on wilderness. I say that based on your contributions to trail building. Or is it more a case of resignation. ie. you can't keep the people out so at least limit the mess they make?

I think a lot of us like the idea of a biocentric approach to wilderness as long as WE are not excluded.

Minimum maintenance trails are a neat metaphor for balance between the 2 views. Blowdown is only cut if it is likely it will lead to a herd trail forming around it. Humans are taken into account but preserving the natural environment is given priority.

[pete_hickey]

Originally Posted by Neil

Anthropocentric or biocentric ?

This is a hard one. I assume, Pete, that you espouse the former view on wilderness.

Wrong.

I say that based on your contributions to trail building. Or is it more a case of resignation. ie. you can't keep the people out so at least limit the mess they make?

Right.

I think a lot of us like the idea of a biocentric approach to wilderness as long as WE are not excluded.

That's the crux. Thats why I ask "What do you want to sacifice for what you want."

Minimum maintenance trails are a neat metaphor for balance between the 2 views.

A compromise. If I were supreme ruler of the world, things would be different.

[TFR]

Originally Posted by Neil

You didn't do any trailbreaking on Hurricane last October by any chance did you?

Why, yes! Yes, I did!!! Up to 3' of snow! Yes, that's FEET! One of the toughest 'Winter' hikes I did last 'Fall'.

[TFR]

Originally Posted by pete_hickey

Know what caused those multiple herd paths on Street & Nye? 46ers who thought that the herd paths were making things too easy. People were reaching the summit without using a map or compass. The false paths were created to confuse less able hikers.

Boy, I hope this is one of your sick jokes Pete!

[Skyclimber]

Originally Posted by pete_hickey

Note that canisters are(were) something wanted by those wanting to protect the summit (stops wandering around looking for the true summit) as well as those wanting 'proof of ability".
r.

It was also so that the Forty Sixers were aware of new climbers and it informed them of the progress of those nearing the goal. Grace kept such records from day one pretty much after she finished.

It was to keep the summits free of litter, so that the hikers would stop leaving their names on scraps of paper and inside ointment containers and such to record their accents.

Emmons was the first Mountain that a canister was placed on, in September of 1950. Then all was removed in 2001 as they were declared Non Conforming Acts of Wilderness Areas.

[pete_hickey]

Originally Posted by TFR

Boy, I hope this is one of your sick jokes Pete!

No it is not. They were intentionally created.. that was a LONG time ago. It was only in '99 that we patched it up, although Pete Fish went there in '97 or so and did some blazing to help people out.

[Skyclimber]

Street and Nye used to have the highest rate for Search and Rescue. It used to have a maze of herdpaths that led nowhere but circles. Getting out the map and compass got you back on the right track.

[funkyfreddy]

Originally Posted by Neil

How can you freeze the man-made impact at its current level?

Quick question: If the internet was shut down tomorrow would impact be increased, lessened or remain the same?

Lessened for sure, there's no question at all in my mind! That's why I haven't posted pics or trail reports for some places I've been lately.....