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Santanoni Range

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  • Santanoni Range

    Couple quick questions as heading there on Sunday - a) what is the true distance of the loop for the range, seeing 17 and also 15.5 both multiple places and b) preferred direction for hitting all three peaks with least impact to the knees? Thinking up the Express and Panther last, climbing not descending down from Santa proper.....yea? Thanks!

  • #2
    I don't keep track of the miles. I am sure someone else will answer that. It would take me about 10 hours for the counter clockwise loop. That would be about 17 in my book. Now I'm curious what will be said about that.

    That being said descending the express trail is pretty rough compared with descending the Bradley Pond path. I think the knees vote to climb the express.

    Don

    Comment


    • moosebeware
      moosebeware commented
      Editing a comment
      I don't keep track of miles either...I just know how long things take me.

  • #3
    That's the route we took. Without checking my map I'd say it's closer to 15.5 RT. Dont expect either direction to be easy on the knees. It was a full day for us. Bring plenty of water. Panther is the nicest summit of the 3.

    Comment


    • #4
      Based on several tracks analyzed with Runalyze.com: ~15.5 miles and ~4500 feet.

      GraphHopper agrees with the mileage but overestimates the ascent (as is its habit to do so).
      Looking for Views!

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      • #5
        Great thanks all! Mud bath few weeks back at Allen then Redfield and Cliff, then spoiled by HaBaSa and NT/Dial this week. Ready for the mudfest again here, although it appears to finally be a stretch of drier weather.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
          Based on several tracks analyzed with Runalyze.com: ~15.5 miles and ~4500 feet.

          GraphHopper agrees with the mileage but overestimates the ascent (as is its habit to do so).

          I agree with the distance, but with many jittery GPS devices it is easy to get higher values.

          My barometric altimeter total ascents are generally around 4950 feet for the loop, so call it 4900-5000.

          Comment


          • #7
            I was there a few days ago. The mud is drying up. I prefer the clockwise loop although I don't think there is a big difference on the knees whether you descend the Express or Panther brook. My average trip stats are 15.5 miles and 4500' ascent.

            Comment


            • Yury
              Yury commented
              Editing a comment
              Thomas, how do you calculate your stats?

          • #8
            Thomas, how do you calculate your stats?
            They are not calculated, but rather measured. I roughly averaged ten trip logs using two different barometric altimeters to arrive at 4500'. Now you've made me get out a calculator and the actual number is 4405'. There is significant variation in the trip logs for elevation by as much as 7%. The distance measurements are very consistent at about 15.5 miles.

            Comment


            • #9
              Barometric sensors are capable of very accurate measurement of pressure. To convert pressure to altitude, the devices use the International Standard Atmosphere:
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ard_Atmosphere

              "Thus the standard consists of a tabulation of values at various altitudes, plus some formulas by which those values were derived. For example, at mean sea level the standard gives a pressure of 101,325 pascals (14.6959 psi) (1 atm), a temperature of 15 C (59 F), a temperature lapse rate of −6.5 C (-11.7 F) per km (roughly −2 C (-3.6 F) per 1,000 ft), and a density of 1.2250 kilograms per cubic meter (0.07647 lb/cu ft). "

              I think we all know that the temperature at sea level is not always 15 C, but that is what the calculation uses.Winter errors are well known in aviation (elevation reported by the altimeter is higher than the actual elevation, depending on temperature) and pilots can use correction tables.

              Barometric altimeters also have potential errors caused by the weather-related change in barometric pressure during a hike. The device assumes all increases/decreases in pressure are due to decreases/increases in elevation. At the end of a hike, this can be observed in the total ascent/total descent values reported by the altimeter (and the elevation reported at the beginning and end). In my experience a difference for a day hike is rarely more than 200 feet (61 meters). With that or a greater amount of change, the hiker is usually aware of a weather front moving through the area.

              Comment


              • Thomas
                Thomas commented
                Editing a comment
                Joe, how large a deviation do you typically have between all the logs for a given route? For the ten logs I mentioned above, I have 8 ascent values ranging from about 4260' to 4530' and 2 outliers of 4094 and 4820'.

            • #10
              The total ascent is temperature dependent and depends on when you do the hike. When I quote standard numbers I look for May through September data when the temperature effect is minimal. In winter the value can run as high as 5500. In summer it is 4800-5000 (a 4% difference). Considering percentages and what is being measured (and the underlying weather effect) the data are very tight. Contrary to some people's opinion, the barometric altimeter is a precise and accurate instrument. Try to do this with GPS altitude. I have, and it fails miserably.

              Here are some values for the Santanonis from 2010-2016:
              January: 5300, 5350, 5500, 5440
              February: 5430, 5320, 5420, 5550
              April: 5260, 5100
              May: 5060
              June: 4930
              July: 4930, 4890
              August: 5000, 4810
              September: 4850
              October: 5140
              November: 5430
              December: 5100


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              • #11
                up the express, now eroded mess but was wonderful when first reverted back to state land. I went up it the 2nd weekend it was legal.
                ​15.5 miles is the figure I always use / assume.
                ​In the winter I've gone both ways but Bradly pond usually best.
                Time = 5 - 10 hours depending on conditions

                Comment


                • Runty
                  Runty commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You can do that whole range in 5 hours?

                • autochromatica
                  autochromatica commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Runty keep in mind that he's a grasshopper, so he can actually fly for most of the way.

              • #12
                Originally posted by JoeCedar View Post
                Barometric sensors are capable of very accurate measurement of pressure. To convert pressure to altitude, the devices use the International Standard Atmosphere.
                On our hike of Gothics & Sawteeth in July, I used the simple barometric altimeter in my watch and my niece used her fitbit-style watch for the mileage. Both were literally perfect all day. The elevation at Lower Ausable Lake, the Sawteeth junction, Gothics summit and Sawteeth summit were exactly correct on my watch. The total mileage reported by my niece's watch matched what Tony's map reports.

                I was impressed.

                FYI, I use 15.5 miles and 5,000 vertical feet for the Santanonis. I always go up the Express and down to Bradley Pond.
                ADK 46/46W, Grid 228/552
                Photos & Stuff

                Comment


                • #13
                  Great weather Sunday 8/27 for the range. Relevant discussion here on altimeters, as for the first time, mine was dead on from parking (Bradley Pond) to summit of Santanoni. Ok, I measured six feet less. Six feet on almost 3000k elevation is dead on. Usually I am well over 100 feet off (using short). Weather was very consistent not impacting pressure.

                  Other comments:
                  Up the Express, down the Bradley Pond. Wow that BP trail is rough. Would do this CW direction again but BP really sucked.
                  Couchie deserved its hate. Overall trip was tougher than Allen, but dryer. Overall trip was easier than Cliff/Redfield, and much dryer. Cliff still bottom of favorites list. Couchie second.
                  Bear on road in morning, beaver under road (bridge) in the evening. Otherwise very very few critters, including birds. Critter dont like dismal.
                  Enjoyed the views from Santa proper. Bogs were ok, both Couchie and Panther. Definately too much internet hype on them. Allen/Cliff/Red much much wetter and worse. Bogs not an issue.

                  Thanks again to all who provided feedback!

                  Comment


                  • Thomas
                    Thomas commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Happy it went well. There's always too much internet hype! I once had a beaver startle me as I was returning on the road. I was plodding along when all of the sudden a big slap and splash in the beaver pond no more than a few feet away.

                    So with all the talk about altimeters, what did yours record for the hike?

                  • autochromatica
                    autochromatica commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I liked Couchy more the second time there, and even more since. You just have to be prepared to climb up to get out! (It was on the bottom for my first round.)

                    And if you go there when it's wet, it's not over-hyped! The top of Panther can be a complete mud pit, shin high. Couchy can be a bog.

                  • Runty
                    Runty commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Agree with you %100. Cliff/Redfield hardest, the Santanoni range 2nd. Didn't think Allen was that bad, much of it was muddy but flat and smooth. Going to do Gray/Skylight/Marcy loop next year and imagine it will rival Cliff/Redfield for hardest hike.

                • #14
                  Yeah....about that.....with a slap to my head, harder than a beaver tail, forgot to check the accumulation at car after collapsing and changing clothes and driving out. Grrrr,,,,,,,,

                  Comment


                  • #15
                    Have Gray/Sky/Marcy targeted in a couple weeks. The more people I talk to, the more say that loop is fantastic, and not one of the hardest, due to decent trail conditions. I am convinced its not the mileage or the vertical, its the rocks, the mud, etc.

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