The Cliff Mt Slide

[Antlerpeak]

Neil among a few others have expressed considerable interest in slide climbing and there have been a few questions raised about the slide on Cliff. As some of you know I have been going through the slides scanning them and I just came across this batch. So as a public ( dis ) service I uploaded the pics of the slide.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?collid=88624318309&UV=56706396301_97653318309

You can find this puppy by following the old Sanford Lake-Marcy yellow marked trail from Uphill lean-to about a half mile. It is about two miles down this trail before you reach the state land boundry. You have to descend almost to the bottom of the decline from the height of land in the col near the lean-to. There are a few pics taken from the trail of the slide but there is a short crashing through the undergrowth to get to it.

Near the top of the slide hang to the right as the cliff is rather formidable. There was a herd path of sorts leading up from the upper right of the slide above the cliffs to the official herd path.

Though the Sanford Lake trail is long abandoned it should not be hard to find. It was almost a twin to the Bradley Pond Trail real ugly, wide and muddy. If you can't locate it I'd seriously reconsider any bushwhacking :)

[pete_hickey]

You can find this puppy by following the old Sanford Lake-Marcy yellow marked trail from Uphill lean-to about a half mile...........Though the Sanford Lake trail is long abandoned it should not be hard to find.

You forgot something

FLOYD.

There are sections that are so torn up, that even the ground isn't there any more. It isn't the simple walk that it used to be.

My memories of that slide are that it is a relatively short one. It semed like it didn'T take long at all to get to the top. (but memory could be faulty). If that is the case, this slide is now another one of those that the slide is simply a short respite on a long bushwhack.

Oh yeah. One thing (and you see it in a couple of your photos)... When climbing this route, one sees how Cliff got its name.

[Antlerpeak]

Alas, I did not exactly forget Floyd it is because the trail had already been closed due to private property issues there was no opportunity to get in there to have a notion of what Floyd did on the ground. Couple that with, "four times up Cliff is enough", there was little impetus to go in from the lodge.

[pete_hickey]

That trail used to be a great way of getting Allen, CLiff and Redfield in one (multi-day) trip. Hike in the allen trail, and camp around the lean-to (when it was there, and camping was allowed. Next day, old yellow trail to Cliff... up the slide, down traditional, over to Redfield, then back the yellow trail. Next day, Allen, then out.

[jtbigmoose]

Pete -
Next time you see your pal Ratowski, tell him about that slide! I recall hiking with him briefly up Cliff and Redfield in 2000...
(even at 59, 6 years my senior, he was leaving me in the dust, so our time together was short.). So ********************sure was he: "No slide on Cliff," he scoffed. This was the great Wayne, so I took it as gospel. As it was, I think Wayne stayed mainly on the trails and paths and pretty much stuck with the 46 (over & over & over).
I've heard he does more bikin' than hikin' these days....
jt

[pete_hickey]

Next time you see your pal Ratowski, tell him about that slide!......I've heard he does more bikin' than hikin' these days....

I'll tell him. If I ever see him again. He was working on the state highpointers, State low-points, tri-points, running a marathon in every state, and probably something else. Then he got back into cycling.

[Neil]

I moved the thread over here.

For the Cliff slide my plan was to go from the LT to the Redfield-Cliff height of land (this col is a lot closer to Cliff than RF) then shwack to the slide base. Do you mean the old Yellow trail went through there? (I just checked in Topo! and now see that it did.) Sounds like a horrific route now. Is there a better way? Dosn't look like it other than from the top of Cliff, downclimbing then climbing back up again.

[Antlerpeak]

For the Cliff slide my plan was to go from the LT to the Redfield-Cliff height of land (this col is a lot closer to Cliff than RF) then shwack to the slide base. Do you mean the old Yellow trail went through there? Sounds like a horrific route now. Is there a better way?

From what Pete says there is no "sure way" to it.

The old yellow trail did exactly that it went right through the col and descended to Upper Twin Brook and followed the brook down to where it meets Lower Twin brook. Pretty much at the confluence of those two brooks is where the old lean-to was. In fact the old lean-to was at the jct of the yellow trail and the Hanging Spear Falls trail.

The slide was very near the trail about .10 to .15 or so You could see it from the trail. You dropped about 300 feet from the top of the pass (Col) between C&R reaching the slide just before the trail reached Upper Twin Brook.

At least you know the trail did go there, perhaps you can trace it. It would depend on how thick it is along that old trail route from Uphill Lean-to to the col and from the col down a quarter mile or so to the slide. The photos of the herd path on ADK Journey indicate part of the herd path is the old yellow trail. Floyd may have covered more than the old trail, it is likely to be gnarly all over in there. Which means your idea of going straight from the col to the slide is as good as any.

Considering this was a mirror image of the Bradley Pond Trail you may be able to see the wide muddy river through the downed trees. :)

As Pete said it is a reletively short slide, but you did gain appx 500 feet and it was open meaning no banging against spruce and good views during your ascent. Considering there isn't much viewing from the top the slide was the highlight of the trip. So even though the slide was "short" most of your climbing was gained on it. Consider from trail to summit is only 700 or so.

Back then with no decent herd path getting half the distance and most of the elevation via the slide was a good deal. I'll look to see if I have an old map that showed the "yellow" trail, I doubt any survived. But reading the present maps you can pick out where the trail was they chose the obvious course.

[randomscooter]

This info is perhaps a bit dated, but it IS post-Floyd. I used to use the old yellow trail to make a nice loop dayhike, and wanted to check it out again post-Floyd. So in October '99, just a month after Floyd, I went in with a friend. That was quite a day, as the entire East River trail was obliterated. Still, we managed to find our way into the old l/t site and then picked up the yellow trail from there. It was slow going, with as much blowdown damage as I'd seen anywhere (at that point in time). On reaching the general vicinity of the slide we decided to bag Cliff via the slide and exit via the herdpath. Found the slide to be quite pleasant (perhaps because of what we'd just been through) and were pleased by how easily we reached the summit from the top of the slide. Then the rains came and the near-epic death march began. The rest, as they say, was, well... a freaking nightmare.
As for legality, it is my understanding that the yellow trail, even though officially closed, is to this day a legal thoroughfare for the public (if you can stay on it!) I could be in error here and, even if I'm not, the guys up at the hunting clubs might take exception and it may not be worth stirring up those old but still glowing embers.

[pete_hickey]

As for legality, it is my understanding that the yellow trail, even though officially closed, is to this day a legal thoroughfare for the public (if you can stay on it!) I could be in error here and, even if I'm not, the guys up at the hunting clubs might take exception and it may not be worth stirring up those old but still glowing embers.

I know it USED to be OK, but the last time I was there, there was a 'No Trespassing' sign right where the closed trail started. The rules got much tighter around the time that the lean-to was removed.

The yellow trail can bee seen on the '53 map, here:

http://docs.unh.edu/NY/mrcy53sw.jpg

It follows Upper Twin Brook.

[randomscooter]

Yeah, I noticed the sign appearing during/after the post-Floyd tensions. Either
a-the sign is legal, reflecting a change in access to the old trail corridor, or
b- the club *thinks* it's legal even though it is in fact not, or
c- the club knows it isn't but has posted it anyways to reduce the amount of traffic up that way.

My nickel goes on either b or c. It seems unlikely that the state would relinquish an easement such as this, so as to leave the door open for future possibilities. But, as I've said, I'm not 100% sure. I will contact the person I spoke with back in '99 to get a status update, although it's more of a curiousity at this point. The route certainly isn't a practical one, although it would still be a fun challenge to stay on the old trail.

[pete_hickey]

Yeah, I noticed the sign appearing during/after the post-Floyd tensions. Either
a-the sign is legal, reflecting a change in access to the old trail corridor, or
b- the club *thinks* it's legal even though it is in fact not, or
c- the club knows it isn't but has posted it anyways to reduce the amount of traffic up that way.
It all depends on the easement. The people originally involved with it are all gone. Did it say anything to the effect, "As long as the state maintains a trail", much as the Mt Adams 'thing' says that as long as the firetower is maintained.
... although it would still be a fun challenge to stay on the old trail.
Only because of the blowdown. Since it is in a valley, and follows the brook, it would be hard to loose your way.

[Mavs00]

I did a "Twin Brook Trail" advanced google search on viewsfromthetop.com (I remember reading stuff there about it in the past).

I got 10+ pages of results. Warning, there is a bunch of stuff about a twin brook in NH :roll: , but it's easy to distingwish between the two by reading the description.

Here are the -RESULTS- (http://www.google.com/search?q=Twin+Brook+Trail+site:viewsfromthetop.com&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&start=0&sa=N)

p.s. Remember to hit the "Cached" version (not the main link) so you get the snapshot of the info as google took it. Otherwise you'll likely get lots o' broken links. Some of the info is a few years old.

[masshysteria]

AP, how long ago were those pictures taken?

[Antlerpeak]

AP, how long ago were those pictures taken?

In the early 80s,

[randomscooter]

I don't have a definitive answer yet, but the source I checked with (who is usually up-to-date on these matters) says he's not absolutely sure but doesn't believe the DEC would relinquish the access. Guess I'll go ask someone at DEC.

[TEO]

The yellow trail can bee seen on the '53 map, here:
http://docs.unh.edu/NY/mrcy53sw.jpg


Very cool map. Thanks for posting it.

The Panther Gorge Trail was wiped out in 1950, right? Had they not updated the map in 1953? Or just not realized/decided that the trail was irrecoverable?

[pete_hickey]

Very cool map. Thanks for posting it.?

Oh, then you are not aware of UNH,s archive of the old maps. Note that the trail didn't exist in 1895.... Heck, not that Marcy Dam didn't exist then.

http://docs.unh.edu/NY/mrcy95sw.jpg

(That map is also on the wall in the room with the fireplace, at the Loj) If you go here:

http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm

you can find tons of old maps. I like looking at the 19th century maps of Long Island..

[TEO]

Oh, then you are not aware of UNH,s archive of the old maps. Note that the trail didn't exist in 1895.... Heck, not that Marcy Dam didn't exist then.


Sometimes I forget that it is there. No longer, it is now bookmarked. Previously, I'd only looked at the Vermont and New Hampshire maps. What a fantastic resource though--to easily be able to see the maps that the Marshall Brothers and Herbert Clark based the list on, to see all the lost trails, to see how maps have changed, etc.

[pete_hickey]

... to see how maps have changed, etc.

What I find amazing, is to see how LITTLE they have changed. We think our technology is so great these days, yet those old maps are probably 98% accurate.

[TEO]

What I find amazing, is to see how LITTLE they have changed. We think our technology is so great these days, yet those old maps are probably 98% accurate.

I agree. But for example, look at the contour shapes in the Santanoni Range in 1904: http://docs.unh.edu/NY/sant04sw.jpg
and again in 1953:
http://docs.unh.edu/NY/sant53sw.jpg

And then there are the obvious changes such as colour, legend symbols, etc.

For me the fascination is being able to see the changes, whatever they are and included in that is the degree to which they have changed whether it be great or small.

[Mavs00]

What I find amazing, is to see how LITTLE they have changed. We think our technology is so great these days, yet those old maps are probably 98% accurate.


Elevations obviously change though. Just looking at the Santanoni Range (since the last post directed our attention to it). NO Wonder they thought Couchsachraga was 4000', because based on countour lines, that is exactly how high it say's it is. The 1953 map has the elevation at 3820' and the 1978 Metric map lists it a 1156 M (3792'). Just how high it Couchie anyway? :roll:

Another example is Little Santanoni Mt. The early map show the highest contour line at 3340'. The 1953 has it at 3500' and the 1978 metric map has it at 1068 M (3504'), most likely cause they didn't look real hard :roll:

[masshysteria]

A couple of things of interest I noticed on the '53 map; In the JBL area, there is a mountain named 'witchopple', which must of been changed at some point to 'Howard'. It even had a trail that dead-ended on its' flank. Just to the south of that, there was a loop trail that went up to a ridge on the eastern end of Table Top. It looks like it followed along the banks of Hogback Brook, and then returned to the Phelps Trail near the intersection of the Hopkins Trail.

Notice also that the trail up to Algonquin followed in MacIntyre Brook for the lower reaches. No to mention a dead-ender that went off the Whale's Tail Trail up the north side of Wright. Legitamate trails or cartographic errors?