ADK Forum going down the tubes?

[Neil]

I just deleted my shortcut bookmark to this forum. In spite of having had a blast posting, learning and generally yucking it up I've made the decision to cease participating on this forum. Is it just me or has anybody else felt that the place just aint what it used to be?

[Antlerpeak]

I havn't thought much about it to be truthful.

[Rivet]

I think the "Katrina" thread over there may be the final straw for me.

[Rik]

The "wolf thread" was the end for me.

[Mavs00]

This is my one and only forum now :)

I guess that's good, huh :oops:

I'm truely glad that you guys are here, you have no idea how much I appreciate the diversity, knowledge and genuine good will of the membership here. That is really of the utmost importance to me anyway.

Sure, the Adirondacks and hiking are the "reasons for being here" but it the sincerity and williness to share that makes it special.

Enough mushy crap. Tell me, how do you get the the 1990 Colden Slide again :bang:

[Neil]

Enough mushy crap. Tell me, how do you get the the 1990 Colden Slide again :bang:
First of all, you take 2 AA batteries and insert them in your GPS.

OR, you wait a couple of years and buy the guide book. Why should I tell you for free here when in 2 or 3 years I'll make a profit off you? :twisted:

[ADKatie]

OR, you wait a couple of years and buy the guide book. Why should I tell you for free here when in 2 or 3 years I'll make a profit off you? :twisted:

I happen to know a pretty talented graphic designer who can design books and stuff.

[Neil]

Check your e-mail for a big file.

[AlpineSummit]

I happen to know a pretty talented graphic designer who can design books and stuff.[/quote]
Yes, but can you follow an arrow?

As for ADK Forum: sorry, but it 'never was' much of anything. Remember how it was - ahem, 'launched' from VFTT? It was launched alright, just like a lead balloon.

[Neil]

As for ADK Forum: sorry, but it 'never was' much of anything. Remember how it was - ahem, 'launched' from VFTT? It was launched alright, just like a lead balloon.

That was before my time. Fill me in.

[1ADAM12]

Well back before your time Neil...Kevin from ADK FORUM advertised his forum on VFTT to get the ADK crowd. I think that is how it worked if I remember. I have met a few "good" people from ADK FORUM and that is the only good thing that came out of it for me :)

[lumberzac]

As many of you may or may not know I’m a moderator at ADK Forum. Reading this thread informs me that we have a problem at ADK Forum and it saddens me to see a lot of good people leave. Could everyone tell me what specifically has turned you off to the forum? I know a few of you have posted that a few resent threads have been the last straw for some of you, but I think it’s the other straws that concern me the most. I ask that you reply to me via private message here, at ADK Forum, or VFTT; there is no need to pollute Tim’s site with a lot of negative posts.
Thanks
Zac

[Mavs00]

Well said Zach. thank you for saying it.

I have sent you my thoughts, and likewise shared them with redhawk when I requested to be deleted from the system.

[ADKatie]

I happen to know a pretty talented graphic designer who can design books and stuff.
Yes, but can you follow an arrow?
[/quote]

SHEESH! I retract the nice birthday post I sent to you! ;)

[Peakbagr]

Zach,

There are some good folks over at ADK Forum, but since the question was asked, I seldomly post there, and mostly hop over out of curiosity.


The signal to noise ratio has always been high there, mostly for reasons I won't post publicly. No offense intended, but anytime someone asks me about an ADK board, I always send them here. Its cordial, the posters really know what they are writing about, and as an early member of both incarnations here, I don't recall ever seeing an insult or fight. Something common on the other board. Other than for hunting or fishing, why would anyone go anywhere else for an Adirondacks Board? After seeing this post, I just went over there to take a look. All anyone needs to read is the Katrina thread on ADKForum, and that says it all.

[pete_hickey]

I don'T really 'hang out' at that place enough to know if things are changing or not. I don't know why.

I probably know the most people over at VftT. It's the people I know there more than anything. THis place here... Well, it's just comfortable.

[Gandalf]

Let me start this post by saying Goodonya Tim, you've put together a fine Adirondack hiking board here.

That said I'm going to disagree with what seems to be the majority opinion on this thread. I derive benefits from and greatly enjoy ADKForum and VFTT as well, not because either is perfect but (maybe) due to their very differences. I wouldn't want my oranges to taste more like apples, nor vice versa...I wouldn't want Algonquin Peak to be more like Couchsachraga, nor vice versa...I guess I'm trying to make a plea for diversity here.

In addition to these three, I post at three other message boards which have nothing to do with hiking (closing in on 5000 posts on one, in fact :blah: ). Two are debate forums, one of which splintered off from the other when many members grew fed up with the administration at the first. People at each spend significant amounts of time dumping on the other, while it seems to me that both possess unique strengths and are certainly worthy of my time and efforts in their own right.

At least for the present, I rather feel the same way with respect to adkhighpeaks, ADKForum, and VFTT. I hope these three boards stay active, and I hope the three remain different in tone, atmosphere, personality, and character. For whatever it might be worth, I have no plans to stop posting at any.

[Mavs00]

Gandolf, great points........... Each board has strengths, weaknesses and things that make them great places for infor exchange. My first inclination was to delete this threadl, but at Zach's urging, we've left it open.

It really does no good to bash another forum, because you simply will only be getting opinions ()which may be worth squat), and generally it won't be allowed here. Zach requested to keep it up in order to get positive feedback in order to possibly delve into the reasoning for some of the recent member drift (correct me if I'm wrong Zach). I think he wants to help that forum by understanding the rationale behind it and I respect that.

I recently got into a tiff with a few members and while I personally think things are allowed to get "too personal" there on occasion, it's always been that way and I accept that. I've continued to contribute over there since the begining despite that minor irritation because the benefits overwhelmed the occasional "dust-ups".

In the last year, the board has shifted so that a great deal of the posts pertain to fishing and hunting, which is not bad or good, it just is. I neither hunt nor fish, so my interest has waned in that time. After the last tiff, I had to ask myself (as I had in the past) "is this worth it t me?", this time the answer for me is NO. No big deal, I doubt I'll be missed anyway as I've not really contributed much lately.

Same thing with VFTT, I had pretty much given up over there, for a variety of reasons (which I won't get into), but in the end, it's personal choice. Each board will provide things that the others won't and that is ultimately the beauty of the situation. It's not a competition to me, and any member of any board is welcome here so long as they are clear on what this forum is and what it isn't.

Bottom line, it's personal choice, forums are larger than their individual members and both VFTT and ADKforum provide invaluable services to tons of folks and that certainly will continue, whether Mavs00 is active there or not.

Hopefully that helps Zach......... It's not personal (in my case anyway).

[sacco]

as some of you know, i'm also a mod on ADKforum.

i've been a member here for a little while but haven't posted much, mainly b/c i haven't hiked much (none in the HP) this summer because of things in my personal life.

to the point-

i've been suggesting an "ignore section" tool for a while now over on ADKForum. I just brought the subject back up over there, and speak of the devil, Tim posts this.

Tim, if you do not mind, i would like to copy/paste your post as further evidence.
since this particular discussion going on at the ADKforum is in the "mods only" section, you would otherwise have no knowledge of me reprinting your post.
There's been a rash of reprinting various posts from various boards going on lately which has led to some confusion and very hard feelings.

I want to avoid this at all costs, so i wanted to let you know what i'm doing. please let me know if you have any reservations about me reprinting your post.

[Neil]

Excellent points Gadalf. I too almost deleted this thread because the title smacks of Forum Bashing. If you take a look you'll see I have posted PLENTY over there and it was pure disapointment that led to this thread. I met a lot of hiking partners and friends on that forum and learned a lot of what I needed to know to get around the dacks in all 4 seasons. The mood was light (I found VFTT pretty intimidating a year ago) and all my questions got great, well informed answers from people like: Lumberzac, JimB, Redhawk, Oldsmores, Dick, Skyclimber, Hillman1, Rik, Mavs00, Johnnycakes, Inge, Rivet, Rick, Peakbagr - yes you!, AlG, even Alpine Summit posted on one of my threads!
As a hiking forum it has slid though. It has slid to the point where I don't get enough out of it for my particular needs and interests any more. I have communicated my concerns several times to RH and various mods and I hated seeing what I felt was happening to a good (in spite of what others have posted) forum. I felt like it was only me who felt this way so I asked the question publicly.
Maybe after a few days I'll zap it.

If 'Zac can turn things around then more power to him. Go 'Zac!

[lumberzac]

I’d like to thank everyone so far for the feedback. Myself and the other moderators are trying to correct some issues that have arisen over the past weeks and months. Your feedback is and will be a tremendous help to us. Thanks again.

Anyway, lets get back to hiking. Here are some photos I took on my vacation a few weeks ago. Enjoy
http://community.webshots.com/album/437755353iERFco
http://community.webshots.com/album/437755358Nyofei
http://community.webshots.com/album/437755358Nyofei

[Mavs00]

Sacco, I have no problem with you posting that, but I would ask, that if you have already done it, please redo it as I went back and correct some of the hideous grammar :?

Also, I have exchanged a very pleasant e-mail with redhawk. We have disagreed in the past and have altering philosophical opinions on several subjects, but one thing we have always had that supersedes that, is a fundamental mutual respect for each other (IMO anyway). That is not the case with others there.

As I told him before, I would love to just stroll in the woods with him sometime, no trail, no nothing. I think that he could teach me volumes despite that fact that he is flaming liberal :shock: and I'm a borderline NeocoN :bang:

Some things transcend silly little thing like politics (which is not allowed here). This is not a personal thing.

[sacco]

borderline neocon?

teeheehee

i kid!

thanks tim. someday, i'd like to hike with you too.

[adk1]

i think the katrina thread says it all ......





www.adksportsman.com

[sacco]

i think the katrina thread says it all ......







agreed. that's why the thread's been closed.

[Skyclimber]

I basically have entirely stopped posting over there, because of the way I was treated by Kevin, several months ago. Then he had to keep it up, by PM ing me with other remarks. I still am bitter about that.
I then got ticked when I seen Kevin posting about Threats, that, that other person never did. It was just a matter of speaking on the other person's part.
I also feel that it is more of a Chat Room than a Hiking Forum.
I though, too, have made a couple nice friends like Neil and Rik over there.
I however still scope all three forums, but rarely post anymore, on any of them. Too many other obligations this Summer.

[Dynotrick]

well I can't speak to it going downhill but as a noob on all three i can say that i'm most comfortable posting here for various reasons. i joined all three at the same time and have only posted once on ADKforum and not at all on VFTT. that to me says alot about the mood at each place. anyways you've got a great forum going on here tim :cool:

[Rivet]

The best thing I think ADKForum could do would be to ban the following two topics: politics and religion.

I understand the purpose of the Rabid section. But, some of these discussions just seem to turn into CNN's Crossfire and leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth. Yes, I know you don't have to read them (or post in them), but they are there so I do. And sometimes it's difficult to bite your tongue.

At least there are no red squares given. :twisted:

[Rick]

If I recall correctly, Back around 2003 there were a whole group of new folks coming on VFTT. It was right after one of the crashes and there suddenly appeared a lot of needless threads along the lines of What is your favorite whatever, (song, artist, car.... you name it.)
Darren put the kibosh on all that stuff and I thought about then, he and Kevin had a disagreement (I might be wrong) but I think it was shortly after that ADKforum was started. It seemed like the place to go if you were banned form VFTT.

I think I remember the original tenets - The rabid granola crunchers - pretty much nothing but politics were off-limits) I know this because I was "corrected" for my Vote for George Avatar.

I found it a nice distraction from VFTT, God knows I spend way too much time on these boards anyway. But I seemed to have grown weary of it in the last few months and have slowed down my posting there.

I am also growing weary of some of the mindnumbing arguments on VFTT.
It seems things started to shift when AMC closed the M&M board after all the problems with a couple of members. I wondered if some troublemakers and trolls had migrated to VFTT and just brought all there baggage with them. I think the rep squares have accelerated some folks desire to complain. I hope VFTT doesn't become a victim of it's success. I met folks at this past winter's gathering and at the Banff Film festival in Somerville and I think they are a great group.

Anyways, I like this board. Thanks Tim. It is small and there is not a seemingly endless barrage of mindless chatter.

[pete_hickey]

I met folks ......... and I think they are a great group.

This is the key. What makes a group, is the social aspect of it. The technical/informational stuff is dry and boring, although it is the glue that ties the social part together. Yes, there are some who may look at it as purely technical/informational, but these people will not remain. They will get bored. How many times, can you go through a 'What is the best snowshoe" thread?

BTW, back in the mid-80's I came across a 'paper' on the life of Internet discussion groups, going from infancy (new, enthuiasm, idealistic), rapid growth, to maturity/steady state, where the social aspect takes over more, because most of the technical topics have already been discussed. At this time, many old hands start dropping off for various reasons.

I wish I could find that now, whoever wrote it had a lot of insight.

Anyway, a moderator must keep that in mind. That life cycle has been repeating itself for 20 years now.

Realizing that it is the social interaction, you will realize that there will be disagreements, flame wars, etc. Especially as the population increases. (true of the world in general, not just the net world) Size limitation is one way to slow down problems. However, if a moderator does that, (s)he is accused of eletism. "What do you mean I'm not worthy to join your group?"

Another way, is through moderation (censorship), and that is very delicate. Nobody likes to be told that their posting is out of line. The stronger, the more bad feelings, the weaker, the more the noise..... but remember, that some noise is good and necessary.

So waht am I saying by all of this early morning rambling. Moderators should learn from history. History repeats itslef. And also realize that Nirvana does not exist. At least not forever.

[Mavs00]

Pete,

That is an great post. I've been thinking about this and have even had discussions along these same lines recently and my position is that exact same as yours.

The balance needed to be struck is not easy, particularly with growth. There is such a thing as TOO MUCH "focus" insomuch that refusal to acknowledge the community aspect forming underneath the technical/informational postings will not prevent it from happening. Human/social nature will ensure that it does, and if you, as moderators, do not guide it, it may take ugly turns that will "show themseves" and make for uncomfotable board moments, If it happens enough, it ultimately makes it less attractive to some folks.

Then of course the opposite is true as well. If you don't have enough focus, the community will just be milling about engaging in "mindless chatter". Additionally, the "anything goes" format can/is dangerous (IMO) simply because certain topics generate a great deal of passion (politics & religion). Passion = feelings, which complicates stuff greatly.

I don't view these as particulaly bad things, just things. The discussion now has kinda drifted beyond the initial topic, but for THIS forum, I am looking to strike a balance and remains both true to the topic that brings us here, and the community that forms underneath it. One thing for sure, I will not be able to do it along, so I will have to ask the core of the community (all you regular posters) to ensure and steer us forward. Most of them understand what this place is and isn't, so is a sheep or two begins drifting out of the flock, we simply reach out and gently guide back in. Or we might just slaughter it right there and have lamb-chops...... Hey, we gotta eat too sometimes :twisted:

This is good discussion for this board too. Ultimately, I feel that every board has to establish and stay true to its "spirit", even if the community evolves and changes (which it will do). Thanks for letting me ramble.

[stoopid]

I think this thread was incorrectly linked in our admin area back when we were going through changes about a month ago... wish I had read some of this then.

There's a mix of sincerity and, well, insincerity posted in this thread. I'm not here to bang heads over the subject as the rest of the feedback is welcome and useful for adkforum's future.

Most of what was mentioned here was eventually discussed in our admin area. The major point being that time and size have moved adkforum to a new place. It's uneasy because of how the downsizing and rearrangement has been taking place. Even today in a post in the admin area I joke about how powerful I must be if I single handedly drove an entire community of hikers away. This, of course, isn't true, and probably has more to do with losing a popularity contest. Reminds me of that old hippy concept of 'we never actually mature to becoming more than adult children'. While I wish flowery lingo like "the forum is bigger than any one member" was actually true, in practice too much attention is placed on the words of the leadership or a select few (even to the point the leadership is censoring their own words).

I noticed that most of the examples cited for leaving (or just posting less) were because of content in off topic posts. Even Rivet says something to the effect of 'I know not to read them, but I do anyway'... which raises the question - how is adkforum, its staff, or the things posted by its members there responsible for your lack of self control? Hell, the old section (now removed per staff consensus) even had the subtitle "viewer discretion advised".

Rick, ADKForum was founded the same day one of the new members came along and notified me of VFTT's existence. Unsure why the order of things matters, but I've had to post and repost this several times. Many of the original members were from forums like backpacker.com, though a bulk of the next 100-200 were from VFTT later that same day and over the following weeks. My relations with VFTT have always been strained because of the perception that I was going to hurt that forum by offering an alternative. Last I checked VFTT is doing just fine, as are we... so I guess there's plenty of room in the sandbox after all. It's sad to hear that they're getting an influx from another forum. That's a double edged sword, been there done that!

Like Gandalf, I frequent other forums. Many of you may not be aware that I have/had forum staff experience prior to forming adkforum (now 4 years of it). I'm not some schmuck with a credit card registering domain names. And for that matter, I haven't made a damn nickel from doing this either. I've helped 2 other forums get off the ground and have been member/staff on numerous others. It used to be a hobby if you will, and I enjoyed the social aspect of it. Now I really only have time for adkforum as it's about all the time I can afford to commit to forum use.

Marta, while I wish we could have moved past the incident of 6 months ago, if you insist on reopening that wound - may I remind you of who insulted who? Standing up for myself because you felt like being wicked one day doesn't make me evil and you a martyr. Examples like this led me to posting in another thread here that it's the inability of a few of you to get real that is going to be your greatest hurtle. I'll repost this fact so long as I continue to see stuff like this.

I've gained invaluable new friends and knowledge over the past 2 years (yes, it's been nearly 2 YEARS!! :) ). I've even found unexpected love. The forums have been one of the best things to happen to me. The encouragement from members while I was doing the 46 last year, and words of wisdom (remember the whole "you're doing it too fast" threads??? lol) that went ignored. :p The new places I've seen as a result of advice or trip reports from other members. The dinners after hikes with people I met to hike with from the forum (percious, lumberzac, nukedrocket, Neil, Yan to name a few) are fond memories. All the various gatherings with all the various people (many of whom are close friends now). From this chair adkforum is doing great. As with everything there's always room for improvement. But as is equally true, different strokes for different folks.

[Mavs00]

Actually Kevin, if your looking for unsolicited thoughts (which was the tone and intent of about ALL the posts in this thread).

I think that a good deal of the frustration that was voiced early in this thread HAS been addressed by you guys and I think your forum is much better because of the changes made. Not sure if this thread had anything to do with it, but I'd like to think so. I still visit, though I rarely post (not even sure why, perhaps just don't feel like I have anything additional to add), but, as one of the very first members of your forum, I find them an improvement.

I'm glad your forum has enriched your life, it should........... This one enriches mine, as does VFTT and to an extent yours (despite my semi-inactive status). That why they exist. Pretty much all there is to say on the topic. You said it yourself, it's a BIG sandbox.

[stoopid]

Not sure if this thread had anything to do with it, but I'd like to think so.

As I said, someone had linked to a thread on this forum during September's problems. The link wasn't correct and I never thought to come here to look for it. If it was part of the restructuring, we all need to thank Zac for providing that input - which I believe he did in the admin area thread.

I agree that the forum has come leaps and bounds.

About a decade ago I learned to 'take what I need and leave the rest'... so feel free to do what you will with the remainder of my post and my PM sent earlier.

I'll probably be back for some topic discussion and I thank some of you for the feedback.

[Mavs00]

The link wasn't correct and I never thought to come here to look for it. If it was part of the restructuring, we all need to thank Zac for providing that input - which I believe he did in the admin area thread.

Okay, Thanks Zach. You did a good thing.

p.s. I deleted the unhelpful portions of my last post. They serve no purpose.

[stoopid]

p.s. I deleted the unhelpful portions of my last post. They serve no purpose.

Ditto. Taking our issues to private where they actually belonged in the first place.

[Tom McG]

As a former VFTT user, I stopped going there because there just wasn't enough on the Adirondack to suit my needs. I was please when hiking with Kevin a few years ago and he said he was starting an Adirondack Forum. I became disenchanted with that forum because it kept getting to nasty and those moderating the forum didn’t stop the nastiness. Even some of the moderators were the ones who were contributing to this problem. One other issue I had with that forum was that there was just too much on the hunting and fishing side. Not that I oppose this activities, I just never had any interest in them and many time I'd check the site and those would be the only type of threads listed for days.
A piece of advice to Neil and the other "administrators", please try to stop the nastiness before it gets out of line and try to keep the threads on the subject. Good luck and thanks for creating this Forum.
Tom McG

[Mavs00]

A piece of advice to Neil and the other "administrators", please try to stop the nastiness before it gets out of line and try to keep the threads on the subject. Good luck and thanks for creating this Forum.
Tom McG

Best advice yet. I'll lock this thread to prevent a further public downhill slide. I will not delete it because, because based on the statements made by those that administrate and moderate ADKForum, some of the information here has helped lead to positive changes there, which is a good thing.

Since it serves to demonstrate a positive forum to forum exchange of information (a rarity these days), we'll leave it up.