Catskill "Traction Control" - when needed?

[daLunartik]

On my way into work this morning, I noticed there was snow on North Mountain, the Blackhead Range and Stoppel Point.
http://thumb6.webshots.net/t/34/34/3/40/81/2186340810090556846fecKOV_th.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2186340810090556846fecKOV)

This got me thinking - generally when do folks start carrying some kind of traction control? I'm thinking more of stablicers/yak trax and crampons, more so than snowshoes.

This is my first year of all season hiking - I've generally stopped hiking by late october, and resumed in the spring, post thaw. Now I've got the winter bug though, thanks to the 3500 club requirement :tup: , and am hoping to finish my 35 before next years spring meeting. Obviously I'll be paying attention to trail reports, but was curious when others start switching over to "winter gear".

[Jay H]

I start carrying crampons when I think there may be ice out at elevations, and some winters, particularly recently, I would ONLY carry crampons and not snowshoes, it really depends on the winter. Because we are in the southern climate, as compared to the ADKs where it may stay cold and the snow will remain snow. In the catskills and points south, a lot of times we get a snow storm and then it warms back up to temps above freezing in the days. Then overnight the snow which was melting will refreeze and you get ice.

So, some years, when there is a lack of a major snowstorm followed by a extended freeze, all you might need is crampons. Unless you are hiking right after a snowstorm or so or bushwacking.

One february, a friend and I did the bushwack range in 9 hours from Moonhaw Road to the Peekamoose/Table trailhead carrying all kinds of winter gear, crampons and snowshoes. We used the snowshoes just for a short section heading up to Friday/BC but I think we took them off once we got to the ridge for the most part. Just not enough snow.

My first hike in the catskills ever was a winter hike up Wittenberg from Woodland Valley, using crampons (6 pt CM type).

It also depends on what you're hiking. The Chute on Cornell, etc..etc. I will look at trip reports and I will many times make a decision at the car. Crampons are easy to carry, snowshoes are heavy so I will more likely carry crampons and leave snowshoes behind than the other way around, figuring with crampons, you can get up things that would be impossible without. Without snowshoes, the worst you do is have to posthole through 4ft of snow, doable but a pain. Lack of crampons can be a safety hazzard, lack of snowshoes can be just nasty. :)

There is no snowshoe rule in the catskills like the ADKs either, no pin pin either!

Jay

[TFR]

On my way into work this morning, I noticed there was snow on North Mountain, the Blackhead Range and Stoppel Point.
http://thumb6.webshots.net/t/34/34/3/40/81/2186340810090556846fecKOV_th.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2186340810090556846fecKOV)

This got me thinking - generally when do folks start carrying some kind of traction control? I'm thinking more of stablicers/yak trax and crampons, more so than snowshoes.

This is my first year of all season hiking - I've generally stopped hiking by late october, and resumed in the spring, post thaw. Now I've got the winter bug though, thanks to the 3500 club requirement :tup: , and am hoping to finish my 35 before next years spring meeting. Obviously I'll be paying attention to trail reports, but was curious when others start switching over to "winter gear".IMHO, yak trax, etc. are not winter gear, they are transition weather gear. They are not very good for steep spots, like going up the last few hundred feet of Blackhead, since you mentioned it. But they are certainly better than nothing.

Certainly there is not enough snow in the cats for snowshoes yet.

But you don't want to get caught 80% up the mountain when there is 2 feet of snow. But how to judge? You might be better off bringing winter gear when you are unsure, instead of having to turn back because the last few hundred feet are too difficult with out it.

And keep reading the boards for other people's experiences.

[Kevin_B_NY]

In my experience with YakTrax, I have not been happy with them...
- Kept having to adjust them.
- Never really felt secure.
- Would fall off.
- Broke them, actually the rubber snapped on them, with less them 20miles on them.

I would say they are fine if you are shoveling the drive, going to and from work, etc, but they have no place in the mountains based on my and my hiking partners experience with them... He had the same troubles I did, and loss one on the side of Greylock last winter. We both had the 'Pro' models.

Now I am debating about Stablicers, or a simple instep crampon. I have mutliple sets of crampons for general walking to full on vertical ice, but many times they are overkill. YakTrax seemed to fit the bill well, but they just do not seem to have the quality in them to be abused. I am still in search of that elusive piece of gear that fits the bill... Like everyone!

[Jay H]

I think about making some old-fashioned hobnailed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobnail) boots with some inexpensive boots but I never get around to it...

Jay

[daLunartik]

IMHO, yak trax, etc. are not winter gear, they are transition weather gear. They are not very good for steep spots, like going up the last few hundred feet of Blackhead, since you mentioned it. But they are certainly better than nothing.

Certainly there is not enough snow in the cats for snowshoes yet.

But you don't want to get caught 80% up the mountain when there is 2 feet of snow. But how to judge? You might be better off bringing winter gear when you are unsure, instead of having to turn back because the last few hundred feet are too difficult with out it.

And keep reading the boards for other people's experiences.
I agree, yak trax and stablicers are transition gear. If the stablicers go in the pack, so do the crampons. I used the stablicers once last year instead of the crampons, when the snowridge in Peekamoose/Table col was too thin to justify the crampons, but too steep to safely bare boot.

I've previously posted about my experience with the "nose" of Indian Head in January, with stablicers when I needed crampons, and know all to well what's like to have to turn around just shy of the summit.

As for Blackhead, I was thinking of crampons when we climbed the east face, and it was July 1st! Was very happy to have done my intial winter ascent on the western side.

I'll definetly keep watching reports and trail conditions. In the meantime, looks like it might be time to at least start bringing the gear to the trail head.

Thanks!

[chip]

hmmmm, it seems like any short screw (without a flush type head) could be screwed temporarily into any boot sole without doing any damage to the boot. The little screw head would then provide the extra traction. Too bad they don't sell metal spikes for golf shoes anymore. I'll have to stop by the hardware store on the way home, to see what I can see.

[chip]

A search on VFTT should yield some info posted last year by Tim Seaver about screw boots and how to make them.
:tup: You are correct sir !

These are the "secret ingredient". Cheap enough to give the idea a try. (http://www.magicracing.com/Kold+Kutter+Ice+Racing+Screws+-+250+pack~~1076.html)

Edited: Actually the replacement cleats for StabilIcers look like they'd work fine (https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39162036&memberId=12500226) and you can spend less.

[mudhook]

This morning showed snow above 2200', looked about 3 " from what was on the cars coming off the Mts. After the last 2 sunday hikes, I am now swiching to my winter pack. I've been carrying gloves, hat, fleece for a month now, but its time to put in the bivy and all that other good stuff that makes for a happy winter. I used snowshoes 10/30/05 on Westkill, that is early and unusual, but they will be in the car if the mt tops look white from now on. 10 pt. Crampons when it starts to freeze solid in December. I am going to try stabilizers for the transitional phases this year, not sure what kind to get, any input? As for Yaktracks, they must be inexpensive or maybe they are disposable because I have found lots of them laying about icy trails. Sometimes I use 6 pointers if conditions are right, but not often any more. A ice axe is better suited for the ADKs, not the Cats ,and even then looks just like something to hurt yourself with. As for hobnailed boots, I have worked in corks, which are spiked logging boots, great for walking on fallen timber, but they are slippery on rock or concrete. I don't know about screw heads, but they sound like they would be alright for ice, but dangerous on rock.

[billandjudy]

We have used Stabilicers a couple times when a little extra traction was needed. Judy had more success than I w/ them. Mine twisted on my boots and were generally not very comfortable.(Weight??) I ended up using trees and such to pull myself along on slippery spots :D

[MattC]

I'll be curious to hear how the homemade hobnails turn out. :D

Anyway, my 2 cents-I'll just offer my own very limited experience.

So far in my two Catskill winters, I have always carried crampons and used them less than half a dozen times.

-climbing the west side of Sugarloaf, there is place where a beautiful blue ice flow forms, and near there the trail surfaces can also ice up. My first time on the spikes was there, w/ our own Laurie Moore coaching me.

-the chute on Cornell. When it's dry, you can just wedge yourself in there and get handholds. When it's iced, crampons are a must. I used them there the one and only time I was there in winter. I just climbed Witt and Cornell this past Saturday and brought the crampons just in case but didn't need them. I don't think that chute generally will ice up just from rains, but it will from freezing rain, or from snow followed by a thaw/freeze cycle.

-climbing down the east side of Indian Head, that steep bit right below the lookout ledge facing Plattekill Mt.

-last New Years Eve throughout a hike to Balsam Cap and Friday. That had nothing to do with those particular peaks though, it was simply conditions-very hard, crusty snow, not very deep. I think a couple folks just wore MSR snowshoes that day. One of us had on only in-step crampons and took a nasty tumble that day.

Never climbed on the east side of Blackhead during winter, but that's another spot it might be wise to bring 'em. Generally I would be sure to pack the crampons for anything in the Blackhead, Burroughs, and Devils Path ranges, at a minimum.

As for snowshoes, who knows right now. Stay tuned.

Matt

Matt

[TFR]

Matt, that chute on Cornell can be very dangerous, I know 2 people who were injured there. One way ice can form is when a lot of people slide over the same area, like that chute. Every person packs the snow down a little more until it turns into ice, with a little help from mother nature.

[Jay H]

There are ways around the rockface on the west face of Sugarloaf. I think Guinness and a bunch of us kind of bushwacked down off of there, more because we couldn't find the blazes so we simply just headed down. The upper sections of Blackhead from the east (from Batavia Kill) is steep enough that crampons are sometimes better than snowshoes anyway, at steeper inclinations, the snow tends to get blown off so you're left with a thin sheet of snow/ice...

Jay

[Snickers]

I have used them all, yak traxs, stabilicers, crampons. My rule of thumb I will carry my stabilicers and crampons from now till spring. Snowshoes will take up residence in the car from now till spring, as will extra winter gear. I have been carrying hat, gloves, and long johns for the past few weeks, I will start to carry the winter jacket and winter em gear now too. As stated in other post here, don't waste your time with yak traxs they don't hold up. I really like the stabilicers, they hold up and the tacs on the bottom are replacable, good price on them at www.campmor.com and you can get the replacement tacs there too, 50 in a bag. Tighten the tacs after each use, they are screws. If I had to choose, I would carry crampons over snowshoes. Post holing is not fun but doable, if you need crampons and don't have them you have to turn back, it is not worth risking broken bones or worse on a steep, icy, climb.

[TFR]

Snickers, I am not trying to dispute what you said, but I have done the Catskill Winter 35 without ever breaking out the crampons. And they were in my pack every single hike. I have also yet to use them for the W46, with 30 down and 16 to go. This is not to say that I have never worn them.

The reason for me is MSRs. They have a great built-in crampon.

Part of this is because I am tall and athletic. I can usually work my way thru or around icy spots. Changing into and out of crampons is time consuming and can freeze your hands. I also feel like I am wearing platform shoes when I have them on, not very stable. They slow you down. Finally, they are very sharp, and can cause injury, both to you, your gear, and others, if you are not very careful.

For these reasons, I consider them emergency gear.

I do read that in the Whites, they are worn quite a bit more, and some people post that they don't even bring snowshoes with them on certain hikes!

YMMV...

[Snickers]

TFR, not a problem. I agree MSR's are a great snowshoe with a very agressive crampon, that is what I have and would highly recommend them. I think snowshoes vs crampons is a personal comfort decision on the trail. Some places I feel more comfortable in crampons then snowshoes. I wouldn't leave home without them in the pack in the winter. Crampons and stabilicers are pretty much part of my winter pack along with snowshoes. Just a fact that winter hiking is more demanding than the other seasons, but the rewards for your hard work are spectacular!!! Nothing more beautiful then a summit with all of the trees sparkling with a coat of ice!!!

[mudhook]

In My Opinion
Until last winter, all Crampons and Catskills had in common was that they started with a c and ended with a s, but last years icy conditions changed that. Normally MSR's are the best all round traction/floatation device I have found. With extra short legs, postholing is not an option, and I will carry the MSRs, they hardly weigh enough to notice. If I'm going to one of the afore mentioned icy steeps, crampons as well.
And carry fix-it stuff, I have broken both crampons and Msrs. I have even made rope "crampons" out of the dogs rope once to get off of Plateau in an ice storm.