How much info should be shared [Archive]

stoopid

10-13-2006, 12:04 PM

I also posted this on adk forum, but we have many members on both these forums that don't visit the other. This is kinda important so I'm reposting it here.
_____________________________________

Interesting emails arrived in my mailbox today. The first was from a concerned ADK hiker, the next from the DEC...

Kevin

This is to earnestly request that you remove information regarding French Louie's cave and its location from your the-boogiemen.com website. As of September 26, there are three graffiti items on the wall over Louie's bed platform. All are dated this year. There was no graffiti of any kind before you posted the map to the cave on your site.

Louie lived in the area approximately one hundred years ago. Since then, only those individuals who were truly intrigued by French Louie's life have sought out the places that he frequented. The cave is one of just a few of those sites that had remained unchanged since his time. But now that you have posted a map of its location, many uninformed and disrespectful weekend hikers can and will easily make the jaunt to the cave.

Attached is a photo of the graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet. I implore you to please remove the French Louie's Cave map (and photos) from your website. When you compare the cave photos posted on your site just last year to the more recent one that is attached, I expect that you will agree that this is necessary to prevent further defacing and degradation of this Adirondack special place.

Sincerely

I did not include the photo as it's not my property to share. If this person wants they can post it in the thread. It's simply three short names scratched into the largest wall in the cave. Appears to be chalk or soft stone.

Dear Sir,

As [a DEC official] of the area including the West Canada Lake
Wilderness and French Louie's Cave, I am concerned that you have posted
a map showing the location of this sensitive historic resource on your
website. Because area's such as this are impossible to patrol, public
access is unobstructed by all means except the length of the hike and
the availability of information. I strongly urge you to help us protect
the cave site by removing the map of its location from your website.

From:

And now my spirited response...

Mr. X and Mr. Y,

As you can probably tell by the amout of photos on my site (http://www.the-boogiemen.com/hiking/), I share your enthusiasm for the outdoors. However, it appears that's where our similarities end.

It was my initial impression to just ignore your emails. Not knowing either of you personally I have to give the benefit of the doubt and do the respectful thing and at least answer. It would be rude to do otherwise.

Posting poorly marked topo maps on the internet certainly does not qualify as illegal or immoral. So that aside it becomes a matter of personal ethics. I obviously do not feel that my maps offer enough clues to sensitive locations I visit, otherwise I wouldn't post them. This point must be made because you seem to feel I didn't consider this issue, otherwise you would never have contacted me.

It requires effort to wander around that area. Even knowing the exact route to take as shared by another hiker it took the 3 in my party 45 minutes from the NPT. The 2006 visitors would need to exert the same effort it took us to find the cave, map or no map.

When I read "graffiti" prior to viewing the image I pictured gang spray-painting, not a few names scratched into rock. While I would probably prefer to not see names on the wall, it's also not the worse trace someone could leave behind. It simply reeks of immaturity. Each one teach one. Find those three hikers and explain why we don't do things this way. I'm off to post this on a few forums as our ongoing online responsibility to remind internet hikers that leaving no trace includes LEAVING NO TRACE. lol

I do not believe my site to be powerful enough to make people decide to engrave their names with soft stone on the wall of the cave. "The graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet" is wildly inaccurate interpretation and it's all yours to own. It would be my right to post GPS coordinates, so be grateful I don't. This is an issue that gets discussed a lot on the internet (what beta to share). Until Big Brother takes over the internet we're going to have to roll with how information moves nowadays. Word of mouth travels at the speed of light and information is no longer the property of the informed. I suggest you build a fence around all the things you love if it's so important you feel it's your right to harrass strangers on the internet and impose your sense of righteousness.

So what's next? Accusing me of causing the cut trees in the Santanonis because I posted a trip report in 2004? I think I posted a map of my Santanoni hike too. OMG!!

Thankfully it's not you who decides where the line of good taste is drawn. Let me set that line for you.

The map, the photos, and any other references made publicly to the cave will remain. We (meaning myself and the others involved in the hike that day) take great pride in preserving those things for generations to come. We will not take responsibility for other's actions as they are not our own.

This matter is not up for discussion (never was). I will only respond to acts of law, so if you feel you have grounds to press charges against me for the actions of others I'll gladly embarrass you in court. There's enough restrictions on my personal liberties that I don't welcome being bothered when acting well within the boundaries of law.

My references to you public will be anonymous. Be grateful I'm that kind.

Best wishes.

Kevin Heckeler

So has this hiking community come to a consensus on such matters, or is it still case-by-case?

Mavs00

10-13-2006, 12:19 PM

So has this hiking community come to a consensus on such matters, or is it still case-by-case?

I don't speak for any community or anyone but myself, but on a personal note. I implore you to reconsider. With all due respect.....

I FEEL YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS ONE.

Moreso, I feel eminently qualified to respond to this post. I am a sharer by nature (always have bee). I never (used to) hesitate to share things I've done or seen. I post pictures too.

Over the years, I've posted TR (with pics) to Amphitheaters, plane crashes, lost ponds, summits and various other places. For the most part, well received, but not always. I've been accused of self-promotion, list promotion, violating wilderness ethics, you name it. Hell, I even spent countless hours researching a military place crash site in the Adk's. When I placed three small flags in memory of the dead in a patriotic gesture, I was roundly accused of "littering in the back-country" :rolleyes: .

So, do you think that I've grown a tad cynical about how casually some people can cast judgements on ME or my motivations when I post things on the internet. Particularly, when they do not know my real personality or intentions...... Ummm yeah, Just a touch ;)

That said....... I beg you to consider taking the map of your site. I think you have every right to be proud o locating the cave, even showing pictures. I've seen em, and there're quite cool. But, the map makes it too easy for just anybody to get there. I try to never post that kind of specific info for just anyone to take.

I hope that while you were there, the spirit of the place meant something special to you. It obviously did, since you shared it with all. Unfortunately, you gave away the key at the same time. Let those that want the spirit of adventure go forth and locate it themselves, and experience the joys you did.

When you went to sell your site, you told us that you listed it on eBay for auction bid because you felt someone that would invest that much ($$), would be BEST qualified to treat and carry on the spirit of the forum. IF THAT WAS TRUE, then PLEASE afford the SAME logic and respect to the cave.

For those that wanna discover it themselves, let them invest of themselves to locate it, it should provide a measure of respect for the place that will prevent something as low-life as carving initials into a historic site.

I know we don't always agree on much, and have had feisty exchanges in the past, but I ask you...... no beg you. to remove the map and at least take some steps to protect it.

For the same reasons I outline above, I don't allow specific info or GPS to be posted here. It has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with protection.

Bottom line for me: Stories and pics, fine... Specific details... keep private

cross-posted on ADKFORUM

Robony

10-13-2006, 12:57 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Attached is a photo of the graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet. I implore you to please remove the French Louie's Cave map (and photos) from your website. When you compare the cave photos posted on your site just last year to the more recent one that is attached, I expect that you will agree that this is necessary to prevent further defacing and degradation of this Adirondack special place."

Bravo on your response Kevin.

Exactly how does the emailer know that the "graffiti" resulted from your TR? It seems more and more these days that people are no longer accountable for their own actions. Maybe a disclaimer to the effect of "the above is not intended for ignorant, malicious, or just plain stupid people".

Mavs00

10-13-2006, 01:13 PM

Exactly how does the emailer know that the "graffiti" resulted from your TR? It seems more and more these days that people are no longer accountable for their own actions.

You don't, but that's not the point............. I wouldn't remove because they told me to, I'd remove cause its the right thing to do.

Personal responsibility, and you'll find no bigger fan of it than me, is something we all share. Stoopid is absolutly NOT responsible for someone else defacing the cave itself, but he is personally responsibly for posting the map on how to get there.

Certainly different levels of responsibility, but responsibility just the same. All I asked was that he take personal responsibility to consider removing the map, which would {HOPEFULLY}, prevent yin yangs from easily locating it and defacing the cave further in the future.

AlpineSummit

10-13-2006, 01:34 PM

Maybe the scribbling idiot wasn't one who got there because of your map, but what if he was? Would you feel no remorse for it?
Even tho you raise some valid points in your reply, I too feel that you should take the map down. It seems to me to be the right thing to do, even if it is not illegal. It is a grey world, always has been.

There's always going to be plenty of time to ruin quiet places; let's keep them pristine as long as we can.

rdl

10-13-2006, 01:44 PM

I think the responsible thing to do is to take the map off your site. There is no way to determine if the vandals found the cave due to the map, but they could have.

You take a pretty defensive tone in your response to what sounded like a very reasonable request by the DEC and the concerned hiker. No need to be defensive unless you're feeling some guilt.

chip

10-13-2006, 03:08 PM

I've never thought about finding the cave on my own, but now that there's a map...

And now my spirited response...

I guess since you posted this on 2 forums you're looking for some input, so here's mine: The map should be removed, but now that you've submitted your "spirited response", removing the map would be admitting you were wrong to post it in the first place, so it's getting complicated...Good thing it's friday !

adkdremn

10-13-2006, 03:24 PM

You take a pretty defensive tone in your response to what sounded like a very reasonable request by the DEC and the concerned hiker. No need to be defensive unless you're feeling some guilt.

This was my initial feeling as well. I wanted to hear what others said before I stated my feelings in order to try to avoid any unneeded controversy. Now that it's been stated I agree with rdl.

Stoopid you're right, the names may not have anything to do with your map. So what's the big deal? Remove it and everyone's happy....except for you. Instead you've wrote a, in your words, spirited letter with a derogatory tone to it....started a thread on two seperate forums which could potentially end in not so nice words. It wasn't an unreasonable request, from the concerned hiker or the DEC. Hopefully now that you've gotten some responses you'll remove the map

Neil

10-13-2006, 03:39 PM

I found your response to be particularly strong and hostile. I don't see how posting it contributes to debating the question as to how much should or shouldn't be shared regarding interesting finds and places in the backcountry.

Another thing I don't understand is why you are consulting forum members about this matter when you already seem so convinced of your position in your reply.

Anyway, put my name in the "it should be removed" column.

1ADAM12

10-13-2006, 04:56 PM

This was my initial feeling as well. I wanted to hear what others said before I stated my feelings in order to try to avoid any unneeded controversy. Now that it's been stated I agree with rdl.

Stoopid you're right, the names may not have anything to do with your map. So what's the big deal? Remove it and everyone's happy....except for you. Instead you've wrote a, in your words, spirited letter with a derogatory tone to it....started a thread on two seperate forums which could potentially end in not so nice words. It wasn't an unreasonable request, from the concerned hiker or the DEC. Hopefully now that you've gotten some responses you'll remove the map

:tup: AMEN ADKDREMN :tup:

Just remove it!

neighbor

10-13-2006, 05:00 PM

remove it. for all reasons stated above.

TFR

10-13-2006, 08:26 PM

remove it. for all reasons stated above.

And of course, all the threads you started about it.

And if google, etc. has it, is it too late ?

pete_hickey

10-13-2006, 08:46 PM

Why bother removing it. Someone else will post it. Things are as good as gone. Remove it, and it may stay somewhat pristine for another few years, but that's all. What's the difference if it's 100 years or 105.

Recent threads (someplece) of the Seward/Donaldson slide had specific co-ordinates of an old lumber camp. That's going to be raided soon. You'll be finding artifacts at antique shops within the next few years.

It's like trying to patch a dam filled with holes. Patch one, and another appears.

Get out now and see things as they are, because they won't be that way much longer.

We can mourn it,s death, but we can't prevent it.

ken

10-13-2006, 09:49 PM

It's a bit too late now...but I'd still remove it.

I'm not sure why one would post detailed information about such treasure of a spot anyway...

You said it yourself Kevin...It's a hard spot to find WITH information. That area is huge. Now how do you suppose the cave lasted as long as it did? Probably because finding the cave was akin to finding the proverbial needle in a haystack. Slapping a map up online of THE ACTUAL location is not the smartest thing to do if one cares about it.

The fact that people (including DEC) e-mailed you to remove it should speak volumes.

kwc

10-13-2006, 10:22 PM

Skyclimber

10-13-2006, 11:30 PM

well said, Neil. :tup:

I second that!

Why "advertise" these special places with a map on the Internet? To me, that is totally ridiculous. DELETE IT!

Why ask us for our opinions, as it's apparent no matter what we say, "your still going to leave the posted map there."

Apparently Concerned Hiker and the DEC also have reasons, "Why they want it removed as well." Their request to you, was done with respect and you write them back a nasty reply!

judgeh

10-14-2006, 06:14 AM

Deletion would be conduct that takes the higher ground and provides a model of behavior for the hiking community in future.

Mavs00

10-14-2006, 09:47 AM

Good points all. Why bother asking if you don't care about the responses. Seems the thread was kinda a watse, huh....

In an effort to salvage it :D, let me take this opportunity to direct our newer members to our forum rules on subject (for all of those non-rule readers among us :twisted: ).

ADKhighpeaks Forum rules (http://www.adkhighpeaks.com/forums/rules.php)

7) There will be no public posting of specific GPS data for any Adirondack backcountry location. This specifically includes tracklog data. Individual waypoint data is fine so long as multiple waypoint data is is a least .75 miles separate from each other. General verbal route description are fine, but please refrain from specific route data unless it is in the done in a non-puplic way (PM or E-mail). This rule is enacted in an specific attempt to prevent "herd path" formation along specific Adirondack bushwhack routes.

btw, that rule is there specifically to avoid stuff like this. I hate letter from the DEC (unless they are nice :tup: )

hawk

10-14-2006, 01:39 PM

I guess that will be no pleasing everyone, regardless.

My initial response is that I probably would not post it on the internet. But then again, that view is from someone who thinks that the information available for the High peaks is causing a lot of destructive traffic. So i guess I'm a preservationist, which kinds of limits my objectiveness. I slao hope that people stay out of the Southern and central dacks so I can enjoys more solitude then places frequented by lots of people. So that make me selfish and my initial respones self serving.

Having said that, I'll go to my opposite tack which is about history and the importance of the past. Is that to be kept secret? what good is history if it's not shared? So, is it really a bad thing for people to know and experience history? Especially history that relates to our wilderness?

Graffiti? Who knows who put it there and if it was a direct result of Kevin's information or not. My initial thought is that people who use this forum are not the kind that would intentionially deface a lean to- leave alone a historical site. And it's so far dowjn on the Google search I doubt if anyone would get it via Google.

So. it's a personal thing and although it's not what I would do, I don't think it's necessarily wrong.

A while back i was thinking of publishing and selling guides to individual hikes like the West Branch Gorge. After some comments by some people and a little time to think it over further, I chose not too.

So with that thought, was Barbara McMartin wrong? Is the ADK and the Eagle press wrong? Are all the forums that deal with the High Peaks or other mountains wrong? There is certainly a wealth of information there to aid someone who is inexperienced as well as experienced.

And what about the DEC? If the cave is that important (and not a doubt in my mind that it is, btw) then what are they doing to preserve it? We have a treasure, but the public is not supposed to know about it? Maybe if we had more patrols and more efforts at enforcement, we wouldn't have the graffiti.

The spot of the hermitage is clearly marked, and it is shown on topo maps and i don't see any destruction or vandalism there so what's the difference with French Louies?

So, I guess I've made a case for either argument and it's just a matter of which way our particular interests lie. There is no true RIGHT or WRONG.

But I think that would is really curious here is the DEC's stance, I don't think it's our job to conceal where it is from others, I do think it's the DEC's job to figure something to protect it, even if it's just a notice about not defacing a historical site. Don't you?

randomscooter

10-14-2006, 01:49 PM

Ummmm, ummmm... I AGREE WITH HAWK! :eek:

There, I said it. :D

Prino

10-14-2006, 07:36 PM

Ummmm, ummmm... I AGREE WITH HAWK! :eek:

There, I said it. :D

I think Hawk made his point very well too!

joseywalesb

10-14-2006, 07:42 PM

Ewwwww man. Boy, were I you, I'd think twice before pissing the DEC off and a bunch of these hikers. You pointed it out in your response. Think, were I you, and did enjoy alot of quality time here in the dacks, I'd prolly do as they wish. Its really not nice being snubbed on the trails or the rude comments some people make. First hand I know this... You saying your not adding to the problem is about as stupid as saying the guy selling beer to the intoxicated person about to drive down the road is ok, or better yet, hey, lets sell guns to a bunch of 18 yr old kids, because it's legal, so they can go to school and shoot each other. That's assinine. <<deleted: no name calling: moderator>>, because your fueling the continuing problem when nicely asked to change what you were doing. Your reaction is typical of what I'd expect from a sycophant such as yourself. Be part of the solution, not the problem dude...

ADKJack

10-14-2006, 07:51 PM

I was thinking..
If I put $1,000 in a cannister, placed it in the woods, took pictures of it and then left a map or the precise location of that canister on a website I would find it hard to blame someone else for taking the money.

But thats what I get for thinking

billandjudy

10-14-2006, 08:44 PM

Well now that Kevin has been roasted to a nice crispy consistency, maybe it's time to lay off. He could have kept his mouth shut. :eek: We don't know for sure if the vandals found Louie's Place by his map or by chance, so lets give him a break. There are thousands of people hiking in the ADK's on any given weekend. We have all been on Algonquin on a Sat and counted 200--300 people on the trail. Let's face it, the ADK's are crawling w/ people! It's only a matter of time untill all these secret sites are found and vandalized. We can't protect these sites forever and to think that Topo map of the area posted on an obscure website (sorry Kevin) is going to cause the thundering herd to visit it is ridiculous--most people don't know how to read them anyway!
Hacking trees on Couch-- that was a reason to get p.....sed. This smacks of elitism
Bill

pete_hickey

10-14-2006, 09:35 PM

..... to think that Topo map of the area posted on an obscure website (sorry Kevin) is going to cause the thundering herd to visit it is ridiculousl
It's not ridiculous. It happens. Talk to the DEC caretakers at the various Interior Outposts. Talk to the rangers. They KNOW when somewhat obscure something has been posted on the net. There is a very noticible increase in people heading towards it. Posting something on the net greatly increases traffic to the area. Fact.

Skyclimber

10-14-2006, 09:45 PM

Well now that Kevin has been roasted to a nice crispy consistency, maybe it's time to lay off. He could have kept his mouth shut. :eek: We don't know for sure if the vandals found Louie's Place by his map or by chance, so lets give him a break. It's only a matter of time untill all these secret sites are found and vandalized. We can't protect these sites forever and to think that Topo map of the area posted on an obscure website (sorry Kevin) is going to cause the thundering herd to visit it is ridiculous--most people don't know how to read them anyway!
Hacking trees on Couch-- that was a reason to get p.....sed. This smacks of elitism
Bill

There is no elitism going on, that I can see. Kevin asked for our opinions, in which he should be able to handle the comments and responses. I'm sure he didn't expect to be applauded for this recent escapade. With him "displaying" the map on the Internet, surely didn't help this problem! If one thinks this is an okay practice, then lets ALL just start posting maps and waypoints to ALL hidden areas of the Adirondacks and the Hundred Highest, so that it makes it easier for everyone!

No we cannot protect these areas forever but we can protect them for as long as we possibily can!

billandjudy

10-14-2006, 10:12 PM

How many hits do you think Kevin's website gets in a day?? I surely don't know, but I'd guess it's not that many.And how many that visit are looking for a place to vandalize?
Maybe I was looking at the wrong map, but I saw no GPS co-ordinates, no labeled arrows pointing to anything in particular, just red flags. Besides this trip was taken over a year ago. I'd like to know how many views there were of the map. I'm sorry but there is no direct evidence that any of this was caused by a map. Do I favor marking sensitive areas on a map?? Of course not. But I can hardly blame graffiti on a cave, on a Topo Map that was posted over a year ago.

hawk

10-14-2006, 11:54 PM

So, just for argument........

Are we saying that posting a map to a particular place on a forum is in some way more harmful then say making people aware that there are 46 peaks over 4000 feet in the Adirondacks and that there is a sense of accomplishment in climbing all of them?

Or a list of the peaks over 14000 feet in the Rockies and their trailheads?

How can anyone single out a single post on one of the many forums on the internet and say that any particular post (or posts) caused a specific problem?

Do you think less people are looking for information on the 46, or the NPT then for French Louie's Cave? I wonder how many people know about French Louie, let alone his cave, and then how many of them are looking for the location specifically to vandalize it? You have to hike in a considerable distance on a trail and then bushwhack some more to get to it. Is there any evidence that these people even knew it was French Louies cave? Couldn't have been someone(s) just bushwhacking and happening across it?

Using the same reasoning, one could blame the forums and the guidebooks for revealing the lean to's and the locations of the trails which has caused the messes at many of the lean-to's and the bear problem. Maybe those shouldn't be published either. They are a lot more accessible then french louies cave in most cases.

And once again, is it the DEC's job to protect the historic sites by concealing their location? No one is supposed to see the place? maybe they should just wall it up in that case. The Hermitage was "History" too, didn't the DEC or some agency tear that down? Is this cave of more historical value then the hermitage was? I don't think so, "The mayor of Cold River" was more widely known then French Louie.

With all the information about LNT and the cautions from experienced backpackers on this and the ADKforum, shouldn't anyone who has found any of the information relating to the "WHERE'S", have also found a lot more information on the "HOWS" (to conduct themselves in the wilderness)?

billandjudy

10-15-2006, 12:10 AM

What Hawk said--Let's go hiking!

Mavs00

10-15-2006, 10:26 AM

Using the same reasoning, one could blame the forums and the guidebooks for revealing the lean to's and the locations of the trails which has caused the messes at many of the lean-to's and the bear problem. Maybe those shouldn't be published either. They are a lot more accessible then french louies cave in most cases.

Some people do think that.... I'd prefer they he take it down, but like I said (and Hawk articulates better), the reason the damage was done cannot be placed on Kevin's shoulders. The "doers of the act" bear most of that responsibility. Does posting the pictures on his sight inspire people to go there? possibly but very debatable. Does the description in the initial TRIP REPORT (http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=2836) make it easy to get to the place? Possibly, but again debatable. Does the map make it easy to find the place for those inclined to go there? Certainly, there's no much question there.

My personal feeling is that the first two are enough, the third one makes it too easy. Everyone like a LITTLE challenge.

Hawk, you are definitely a proponent of the "people are stupid" camp, right? I don't entirely subscribe myself, but It seems obvious (by the graffiti) that one can make argumeent in this case. Or at the very least, that not everyone can be trusted to stroll into a historic primitive camp and NOT feel the need to "tag" it (which is a despicable act). Just a thought.

My opinion.... I would say, leave the first two and take down the map. If someone writes you and say's "Hey, that cave is cool, how do you get there". Then you can make the decision if you want to share specific infomration or not.

Neil

10-15-2006, 10:48 AM

hawk

10-15-2006, 11:42 AM

Hawk's post # 20 is excellent. However, I find the latter argument that compares sharing the cave's location to the 46 high peaks, trails and LT's to be too much of a stretch. Publicizing the location of French Louis' cave dosn't compare to publicing how to get to Mt. Marcy in my books.

Now, on a side note regarding the supposed "ruination" of the Adk's wrought by the many ignorant and stupid people that go there:

Personally, I am always pleasantly surprised at how clean the High Peaks region is. On my recent hikes to Marcy (not a shred of litter or garbage on the Van Ho trail), Jay Mtn., Haystack, Basin, Saddleback, Gothics, Sawteeth etc. I did not see more than one or two pieces of wrapper from chocolate bars (which I picked up of course). Most of the LT's I have seen this past summer and fall have been inpeccably clean. True, I found discarded junk at the Giant-Green Mtn LT last year but most of the LT's that I have come across are spotless.

As for eroded trails I blame that more on poor design than herds of people who have no right to be there.

Am I out in left field here?

you evaded the "bear problem"part quite nicely! :D

And common sense dictates the understanding that the more people, the more wear and tear on the trails and the widening of trails by people who don't want to get their boots muddy or wallow through a foot of mud or even get their feet wet. That's a reality.

There has ben garbage at the Ward Brook lean to as well as the blueberry on a couple occasions that I have been there, and it could have been backpackers just as well, either of who might not have been there if there were no ADK or McMartin trail Guides or maps or no NG maps showing the trails.

My main point is that often it's in the "eye of the beholder" and "subjective"

Of course you don't want to see or hear anything that would point to 46'ers or this forum contributing to negative impact or any problems. Nor would I want to think that anything I posted would cause any damage to the places I love. Yet people have taken issues at times with information have posted, and that probably applies to anyones posts that have any real information.

You don't post a lot of information about the routes of your bushwhacks but you do post a lot of information about bushwhacking and how much fun or what a thrill it is. So one could easily imply that what you post here regarding that encourages or gives a lot opf people the idea of bushwhacking whom never did it before. My posts about bushwhacking into the West Branch Gorge could do the same thing. And if there is a bushwhack for a route, then in reality, it's not really a bushwhack (at least the way I figure it) so really, what's the difference?

If a hunter posts on a forum that he bagged a deer and that there were lots more in a certain area, without giving specifics, I am sure that it wouuld encourage more hunters to go into that specific area, so is it wrong for them to do that?

It's the same in the forums in a sense as it is in writing history. A few people have the control over what is and what is not allowed to be posted. That's what makes those forums diffrent. However, no matter they are, or try to be, the content of the information posted is based on the beliefs and the style of the owner and or moderators.
There are things on some forums that others might find offensive or which is counter to their beliefs. Often disagreeing with what the owner/moderators or the majority of the people on that forum believes leads to a defensiveness by the members of the forum and the person(s) who have a different point of view.

Don't anyone go spastic here, I am talking about forums in general and no specific example.

Again as I stated earlier, I would not post most of the information, but mostly because of selfish reasons. On the other hand, I have read a lot about French Louie (and Noah John Rondeau, and Paul Smith and Clarence Petty and Seneca Ray Leonard) and I am fascinated by their history and think that if more people knew about and understood them, their might be less problems and more of an appreciation and and preservation of the wilderness. That cannot be accomplished if people are unable to experience first hand the territorys and actual places that they live.

So there is a part of me that says that if there is something that is historic, it's meant to be shared, and there is the other side of me that doesn't want to share it because I don't want a lot of "strangers" (who of course are not strangers to some other people, only to me (the "subjective" part!!) running around in MY woods (subjective again).

I am not saying that either approach is right or wrong, I cannot do so without being subjective. I am just trying to point out that there is a case for wither side so in the long run, I think that Kevin or the staff of the ADK forum should handle it the way I would. Do what they believe to be the right thing with the understanding that some (or many) people are going to be opposed and let them deal with the fact that they have to accept someone else's decision.

Prino

10-15-2006, 11:49 AM

I’ve been following this thread for the last couple of days and there is something to the story that just doesn’t quite make sense…

As has been mentioned on the AdkForum…...”I highly doubt people would walk 6 miles in, then bushwhack 3-4 more just to write their name on a cave wall.”
In soft chalk on top of that…. Obviously the “vandal” didn’t want to do any permanent damage.

Is there a possibility the Physical Graffitti has been put there by a “Concerned hiker” who does not want to see maps of historically important sites displayed on the internet as a troll do discredit Kevin?

If it was a troll ….It certainly worked, reading Kevin’s “strong and hostile” response to both the “Concerned Hiker” and the DEC representative.

I may be out to lunch here. I’m not getting out in the bush enough :cry: …. Too much time spent in front of this damn computer screen. :twisted:

I would like to add that I’m generally not in favour of displaying maps about these wild and sacred places but in this case something doesn’t weigh up.

adkventures

10-15-2006, 11:52 AM

who is French Louie?

Neil

10-15-2006, 12:13 PM

who is French Louie?
Google him thusly:
"French Louie" adirondacks

hawk

10-15-2006, 02:33 PM

Could someone tell me what good (positive) comes from posting the map?

The bad (negative) is obviously debatable as seen from this thread but if there is nothing positive to gain from it then it seems that keeping it up is being done almost spitefully at this point. The response to the original requests to take it down seem defensive, hostile, and over the top to me as well.

Positive?: It shows the position of a place of historical interest, pretty much like maps and monuments of Revolutionary War and Civil War battlefields, The marker and map notation for the Hermitage, and others. Not unlike what you find in many guides and posted on many maps. Evidently French Louie is different, no one is supposed to visit any of his places.

As far as over the top and hostile, when people start blaming me for things for which there is no proof and a public agency that is supposed to protect and preserve these sites tells me that I should not be telling people where to find some "history" I could get downright hostile myself.

I also do not rule out what Prino said about someone trying to set Kevin up. I mean, it doesn't strike anyone as odd that he should receive an email from an individual AND the DEC about this same subject in the same time frame? :eek: No one smells a rat?

I even have a pretty good idea as to who might have had an agenda to do something like that. I just avoided saying anything because that was not really the principle that is being debated here.

Hawk

hawk

10-15-2006, 02:39 PM

If someone writes you and say's "Hey, that cave is cool, how do you get there". Then you can make the decision if you want to share specific infomration or not.

And of course, this being the internet, we know for sure that the person on the other end of the keyboard is exactly everything they claim to be, right?

So that's flawed reasoning as well.

For the sake of argument (which i'm good at) then does it not become the responsibility for the forums to have a closed membership, accepting only people whom they know to be of good character and not liable to misuse the information? Or at least to have the area that contains any of this type of information separate from the open membership section?

randomscooter

10-15-2006, 03:05 PM

Is there a possibility the Physical Graffitti has been put there by a “Concerned hiker” who does not want to see maps of historically important sites displayed on the internet as a troll do discredit Kevin?
I have suspected this from day one. It just didn't smell right. But as Hawk said, this is more of a tangent to the specific topic being discussed, so I just kept it to myself. Besides, living up here in the boonies my imagination sometimes runs wild :twisted: :D

ElectricMan

10-15-2006, 04:15 PM

I don’t believe censorship of information is the answer to whatever particular augment to preservation you have. I also believe that we (any specific group) have a tendency to overestimate the influence they have on their environment. If you were to poll the hiking community to find a % of those individuals that gain specific and significant information from forums and websites, I’m willing to bet it would be minuscule.
That being said, I think the tone of the response was over the top. I would have started a dialogue with them before telling them to stuff it.

Mavs00

10-15-2006, 04:42 PM

Is there a possibility the Physical Graffitti has been put there by a “Concerned hiker” who does not want to see maps of historically important sites displayed on the internet as a troll do discredit Kevin?

OH GOD!!!!!!! Here come the conspiracy theories :D I bet you also believe that.....

//------ SELF CENSOR: INAPPROPRIATE -------//

:D :eek: :D Obviously, there is no right answer here. Personal, I'd prefer that it not be there, but won't loss sleep that it is. Also, alot of people tent to discount the proliferation of internet information. I never really though this little corner of the web saw much draw or traffic (despite the stats), but I've had several people I know from different places that have come up to me and completely out of the blue said "Hey Tim, I was on your site the other day". Conversely, I've had many people that I ran into on the trail that came up to me and said "Hey, Mavs". I also find that very odd.

While we may think that only 30-50 people (who post the most often) are the only ones that read this stuff, think again. We average 5000+ individual URL's a month, and we are the smallest of the 3 boards.

hawk

10-15-2006, 05:44 PM

So the positive is that it is easier for more people to go there? More accessible?

It's positive because it makes people aware of a historical site and how to view it.

If that isn't positive, then why are there maps and books and monuments and even guided topurs to many easily accessible historic sites?

Should readily accessible historical or interesting sites be advertised and promoted and less accessible sites be concealed?

I thought that the example i gave of how it would be positive was pretty straight forward and understandable.

hawk

10-15-2006, 06:11 PM

OH GOD!!!!!!! Here come the conspiracy theories :D I bet you also believe that.....

//------ SELF CENSOR: INAPPROPRIATE -------//

:D :eek: :D Obviously, there is no right answer here. Personal, I'd prefer that it not be there, but won't loss sleep that it is. Also, alot of people tent to discount the proliferation of internet information. I never really though this little corner of the web saw much draw or traffic (despite the stats), but I've had several people I know from different places that have come up to me and completely out of the blue said "Hey Tim, I was on your site the other day". Conversely, I've had many people that I ran into on the trail that came up to me and said "Hey, Mavs". I also find that very odd.

While we may think that only 30-50 people (who post the most often) are the only ones that read this stuff, think again. We average 5000+ individual URL's a month, and we are the smallest of the 3 boards.

To answer the first question, one has to consider the fact that Kevin received an email from the DEC and "another person" at the same time as being a little too co-incidental, and believing that is not a conspiracy. A conspiricy is when several people "conspire" to do something in concert. this is not the case.

Since you asked, I'll give you a sceneriao and you tell me if it makes sense or not. An individual, say someone who feels that kevin has caused him to be faced with a legal matter, or has had negative attention drawn to them and preceives that to be Kevins fault, either as an individual or as the owner of the adkforum. Said individual then looks through kevin's posts and sees that one, and decides to use it in order to discredit Kevin, possibly in the same way they were discredited. so, they hike in to the cave, write the graffitti, come out, notify the DEC and point to Kevins post about the cave, ad then go get some personal satisfaction, send an email to Kevin. They also take some satisfaction in seeing the reaction that some people on these forums post and post their own as well, a little more mean spirited then the others, and in some way think that it takes some heat off them. Are you getting the picture?
And since it is an individual, there is absolutely no conspiracy nor did I imply that there was one.

I'm quite aware of the number of people who read these boards. Having a site that has over four and a half million viewings since it went back on line in 2001, I am well aware of what the internet draws.

Peronally, I don't believe that Kevin's information had anything to do with the graffiti. Personally i do think that the scenario I have given makes more sense then someone just hiking all that way to see the cave and carrying in the chalk with the intention of writing the graffiti.

There is information that i see posted on these forums that to me results in more negative impact then what we are talking about here. That's my opinion and that's not going to change what is posted.

So we're back to the fact that it's a personal issue and a personal choice. Kevin asked what people thought about the information. He's gotten a lot of cons and a few pros.

As far as what he said to the DEC, or the tone of it, since that doesn't affect anyone here, I think that any remarks about that are unnecessary.

I also feel that the DEC really needs to do more to protect the site if they are concerned, then to ask people not to post it. Thats MY biggest issue. They are geting paid to protect the envirnoment, would and whatever treasures are here. If their method of protecting a historic site is to keep it concealed, then something is wrong. I'm more concerned about that then I am about the information that has been posted about the location of the site.

1ADAM12

10-15-2006, 06:29 PM

What I find odd is Kevin has not been back to defend himself. He starts a thread and lets it rest? Thats just not him :eek:

pete_hickey

10-15-2006, 07:25 PM

It's positive because it makes people aware of a historical site and how to view it.Why do museams have cases around items?

Things are protected by keeping people away. Keeping their location secret is one way of keeping people away. Look at what is happining with the old Indian villages out in the southwest. The ones which aren't in national Parks get stripped of everything as soon as their location becomes well known.

One thing the most people don't realize is the magnitude of the Net. (This was actually in part of a talk I gave last week at a conference.) It isn't like printed documents, which have a limited distribution, and a limited life. Once stuff gets onto the net, it is there for good...Google has 22 years of my life in its archives. In addition to it being archived, it is well indexed.

Discussion forums are NOT like guide books. Communication is bi-directional. There are moods and changes to moods. People influence other people.

Mavs00

10-15-2006, 07:34 PM

To answer the first question, one has to consider the fact that Kevin received an email from the DEC and "another person" at the same time as being a little too co-incidental, and believing that is not a conspiracy. A conspiricy is when several people "conspire" to do something in concert. this is not the case.

:blah: :blah: Whatever.... :D

I don't think any of us really know one way or the other. Only what Kevin shared. We can speculate all day long, but in the end - What we do know is that we do not know enough to say one way or the other about why he was sent those e-mail.

I (and many others) took Kevin's post at face value we stated our opinion from there. It need not become a huge debate. There has been good info all around from my perspective. There are valid points accross the board.

joseywalesb

10-15-2006, 07:38 PM

Nah, don't think so. Matter of fact, I really don't think DEC even mailed the dude. They didn't email me. They don't usually do that sort of thing, it's wayyyyyy outside of policy to do that. I'm thinking someone was just trolling around looking to cause some heated debates. From a legal standpoint I don't think they can just email someone and ask them to remove posts. They'd know right off hand that's a violation of our freedom of speech, they follow the law. He's got the right to do it, our opinions don't mean squat, but to ECO officers, they HAVE to follow procedures. If not and Dubay gets wind of it, I'm sure said officer will be in a pile of sh$%. I know quite a few ECO's, they'd not likely email someone like that. I asked one, he laughed at me, said is it against the law??? I'm still thinking their holding back on the area 51 aliens though... :D

AlpineSummit

10-15-2006, 07:48 PM

There can be merit in secrecy sometimes. And sharing is best one on one.

Do you think old-timers would ever post the location of their best fishing-hunting spots at the town common or general store?

Neil

10-15-2006, 08:02 PM

<insignifigant OT post>
Does anybody here like the Velvet Underground? My kids're playin' some right now while they clean the kitchen.
</insignifigant OT post>

OK, back to the discussion.

hawk

10-15-2006, 08:19 PM

What I find odd is Kevin has not been back to defend himself. He starts a thread and lets it rest? Thats just not him :eek:

He hired me to argue his case. :D

ElectricMan

10-15-2006, 08:26 PM

He hired me to argue his case. :D

Do you do divorces, as well? :D

stoopid

10-15-2006, 09:59 PM

<deleted by moderator> come on dude.......

No really :D.

Sorry i haven't been back to "defend myself" (as it seems I'm the one whose been the vandal :rolleyes: ). I was out introducing a friend to the high peaks today, and taking a tour around Lake Placid. I supplied him with a GPS, waypoints to fragile and important locations, and lots of chalk.

Yes, I am mocking many of you. I posted this as a FYI to generate debate and discussion on ethical issues we face every day these forums are online. Some good stuff has been posted, when not bent on the usual personal tangents of resentment driven hate.

It's really strange that I didn't think about the 'setup' theory, that this was a staged event and attack on my character. It wouldn't surprise me, some very sick people hate my guts. Guess it's better me than their pet dog or SO taking the abuse. My only regaret is wasting the time replying to the emails. This thread was not an entire waste, though it can use some serious pruning.

Did I mention that I wasn't the one who vandalized the cave? I think that got lost somewhere in all this...

And for jokeywells or whatever they're calling themselves - the difference between your actions and mine is that I haven't committed any crimes.

All the effort spent yelling at me seems like a waste when we really need to be expending that energy on those who signed their names (if they really exist).

hillman1

10-15-2006, 10:08 PM

I was also out hiking today. Pretty nice for this time of year. I try to stay away from these posts as they tend to polarize issues and screen comments sometimes come off differently than they might if it was an actual conversation. With that being said--I am with PH on this one. The wilderness is getting pretty small these days. The internet has opened alot up in the last decade, and I am part of the problem. As I have said before, once my house gets built on top of owls head, I will be all about wilderness preservation.

Neil

10-16-2006, 11:53 AM

After re-reading the thread I don't perceive that Stoopid has being roasted or on the receiving end of resentment driven hate. Posting the 3 emails was sure to result in some commentary. That there would be criticism of the act of posting the map and criticism of the content of his letter was obvious.

One can argue that the posts should only have been directed to the right or wrong of publishing specific info on the net. In that case, posting the emails "in toto" would have been unnecessary. However, the original "what do people think of this?" question seemed pretty much wide open. As it turned out, the discussion revolved as much around the emails and the posted map as it did the original question. Such are the vagaries of internet forums.

If any of us has anything more to say on the subject from here on in, I suggest we keep our comments non-personal and directed specifically to the sharing of beta on the internet.

hawk

10-16-2006, 12:15 PM

Good we are clear. You feel it is positive that more people can more easily get to the site. I'm not sure I agree that this is a good thing. Why do we want more people going there?

No that isn't really what I said. If you are following all my posts on this this thread you will see that I said earlier that "personally, i would not post the information".

You asked "what could possibly be positive about posting the information" and I gave you an example, that it is a positve thing if people have access to history. There are hundreds of historical sites, if not thousands, that give creedence to that.

The "straight forward and understandable" example that you gave really describes why the map might exist or why info on French Louis might exist but wasn't really clear on why POSTING the map was a positive. That is why I asked for clarification.

The "straightforward and understandable" remark was to state that it is pretty clear that what I put forward as a positive example is just that, as explained in my first reply in this post.

As far as books, maps, tours... I don't recall ever referring to those as positive. That sounds like another good debate.

And finally, my choices are 1. advertise and 2. conceal ? There must be other choices, no?

My reference to the maps, was that many historical sites have maps showing their locations, tours that go there, etc. Adding weight to the argument that people or organizationss usually do what they can to make historic sites easily accessible as well as advertise their existance.

And finally, yes I agree 100%, that there should be better choices and that it is the DEC's job to try to make those other choices available somehow.

Pete argued in an earlier post that museums put's exhibits in cases (for protection). My reply to that would be that sometimes they do, but that those cases are transparent so that the contents are visible to the public. Sometimes things are in climate controlled or airless sealed cases to protect them form the elements, but you can't do any of the with a cave, can you?

So, I agree that something should be done to protect in some way, this cave. But if we are protecting it for history, then what good is it if its existance is not known? So we're back to the conundrum of HOW to protect it, yet at the same time make this history "visible" (for lack of a better phrase) to the public. And I know that it won't be an easy thing to do. A sign about it's historical significance and to treat it with care would at least be a step forward. I just feel there is an option other then to keep the location concealed.

This discussion should probably be a separate thread at this point, and I think that it's discussions like this (The What to do to protect, not if it's right or wrong to post locations) that can sometimes make peopel come forward to try to see that something is done to protect these sites. We have people trying to protect Fire Towers, Old chimneys in some instances (Whitehouse) and other things, so why not the cave?

Hawk

Mavs00

10-16-2006, 12:25 PM

I agree with Neil. I don't see this thread as overly hostile.... Let just keep it impersonal though, so no one feels attacked.

...... ummmm..... After this one comment, of course.

Hawk, do you EVER let anyone win an argument? ;)

If not, how much retainer do you require. :D

Little Rickie

10-16-2006, 12:44 PM

It is possible to love something to death. With the best of intentions our written words, maps, pictures or whatever, draws people into the wilderness.

This is the world wide web. Exposure in unimagedly huge and should be considered unlimited. This is powerfull and influential. With power comes responsibility. Caution and discretion are called for.

hawk

10-16-2006, 12:55 PM

joseywalesb

10-16-2006, 02:34 PM

To put this all in perspective, I've finally figured a way to make this more comprehensible. Last spring, '05, the outdoors guy from the Plattsburgh Press republican wrote an article on Lake Kushaqua and all the primitive camping areas up there. Pete knows exactly where this is. I've been going up there camping for a few years now since it's really not far from my house and usually has little to no traffic. I've been camping there and swimming probably 50 times in the past 4 yrs. There are roughly 6 camping sites up there, that I know about, that are on a first come first serve basis. In the 3 yrs before the article, I had never been able to not get a campsite. By this year, and after his article in the Press, I went 3 weekends in a row, tons of people up there, and not a single site available. The press does not reach even 1/10th the number of people the net does. I was like hawkman at that point, SELFISH. I don't mind the occasional people, I even don't mind sharing, but when you have to get up at 5 am on a friday morning to get there to set stuff up so you have a weekend place to camp, that sucks. It's just prevention. Let people find out about it on their own, or wait till they ask, if they are that interested they'll ask. I always do. Perhaps my last post came off wrong, I apologize for the tone and tenure I took with you. I should have been more to points of fact. If you google a search for past articles on the press-republican and Onchiota, you'll see what I'm talking about. Also, contact some of the forest rangers we see up there everytime we go. They will tell you after this article there is probably 3 times as much traffic as there used to be. What Pete said is right, it is a fact that they notice the increased traffic. I've still got several small peaks, swimming holes, camping areas I refuse to tell anyone about, specially after things like this transpire. I hope you do the right thing Kev...

AlpineSummit

10-16-2006, 03:51 PM

One thing is for certain: I would never disclose anything worth hearing if I thought the recipient of that info would post it on the internet.

I don't care how small or non-visited a site may be. There's such a thing as being careful with information and then there's being flagrant and reckless with it.

Put it on the net and it's as visible as if a blimp were flying with the message over the Super Bowl.

There is also something to be said for responding to thoughtful, intelligent requests in kind, and not w/ mockery. Those letters were obviously written by folks with good intentions. I'm not so sure about the reply.

Human nature is often to visit, pilfer and leave some mark of one's passing. Sad but true. As hikers, we are mostly immune to this but it still occurs in our ranks.

AlpineSummit

10-16-2006, 03:53 PM

And there's nothing wrong with just letting something BE.

There's always plenty of time to screw things up but we can never bring anything back.

hawk

10-16-2006, 06:11 PM

[QUOTE]

If you follow my posts you will see that what I keep asking about is the POSTING of the map and not the existence of the map.

POSTING the map gives access to the cave not the history. Yes, there are many historical sites. Most of which have been abused, picked over, vandalized,... once their location identified.

I'm still not seeing this as a positive example.The POSTED map makes the cave more accessible to more people. If I POST my email address (a map of how to contact me) on a public board I will probably get both useful and harmful emails. Of course, when my computer crashes I won't get any email due to the one virus I invited in. Is it my fault someone sent me a virus? No. Could I have prevented it? Possibly. But either way everyone that reads my email address will be "educated" as to where to find me. Again, I won't be worth finding since my computer crashed. But at least my email address is out there.

Again, not sure where the positive is. Is your answer really "because people usually do it"? Doesn't sound like a Hawk answer to me.

In the meantime is it a better choice to cooperate with the DEC to achieve this goal or to send them defensive messages when they make a simple request? I believe it has been argued (maybe even by hawk) that if people had complied with DEC requests around protecting food from bears then we wouldn't have as severe a bear problem as we do?

The map doesn't protect anything. It also does not make the existence of this cave known. It makes the location known. Why do people need to see the cave to appreciate the history? Seems to me it had more intrigue as a mysterious location. Seems to me that if history was the goal then POSTING a map of the caves location does little to further the history. Now people can find it with less research, reading,... Usually less reading isn't a great asset in learning history.

Different discussions. This thread was about a POSTED map and the response it generated.

Guess you're talking apples and I'm talking pears.

What kind of vegetables do you like??

Sparky

10-16-2006, 07:58 PM

I think it's one thing to respond to an email (sent to you in private) with another email, but to post it in multiple public forums just shows a lack of common courtesy.

Email Etiquette (http://www.emailaddresses.com/guide_etiquette.htm)

...just my opinion.

Little Rickie

10-16-2006, 09:29 PM

The more you talk about it the more attention you bring to it.

neighbor

10-17-2006, 05:44 AM

dead horse
i think this site is great without a doubt.
sometimes these types of conversations go on and on and on and on to the point it gets ridiculous. jus' my opinion. mavs does a great job here with the help of neil and alpine summit. keep up the good work. :tup: :tup: :tup:

Mavs00

10-17-2006, 08:45 AM

Neighbor is 100% right....

We actually discussed this among moderators, and with our collective (significant) experience on forums, we think the threshold on this site is about 50 posts. After that, it mostly becomes an exercise in pedantry.

I will happily report that this problem is NOT exclusive to this forum. I know a few other places (that shall remains nameless :twisted: ) that this occurs in as well.

Actually, I think any forum of this format (community based) is gonna have those issues. Thats neither bad or good, it just is.

I only mention this as a warning........ its pretty safe bet, once a thread like this hits 50 posts, you can stop reading, all the important crap got said by then :D ........ (thats in jest folks, in jest. umm, sorta)

Mavs00

10-17-2006, 09:07 AM

Interesting that moderators made post's #51 and 52 as well as 7 of the 23 posts beyond the 50 mark ( of course Hawk and I account for much of the remainder).

True....... BUT ;)

51 & 52 - we'll call them upper edge, within the "margin of error" posts and discount them right off. 4 of the other 5 posts (5/6 is you include this one), are moderation based......... meaning, they have less to do our personal thoughts on the matter and more to do with trying to maintain the spirit of the site. (talk about pedantry :D )

Keep in mind our moderation style. We try to be non-confrontational and diffuse tensions. All of us locked on to this thread, for its "potential" to get ugly. People may not like that style (it get me in trouble quite a bit), but that's how we do it. :oops:

All in all, this thread, outside a few "moderated" comments maintained reasonable civility. Actually, this thread had a longer life (like 60-65 posts) simply cuz you (Rik) were putting up a pretty good verbal smackdown with excellant points in the late running. :tup:

TFR

10-17-2006, 09:17 AM

... cuz you (Rik) were putting up a pretty good verbal smackdown with excellant points Hey, this should be Rik's new title:

"The Smacker"

:eek: :D

Neil

10-17-2006, 09:23 AM

Interesting that moderators made post's #51 and 52 as well as 7 of the 23 posts beyond the 50 mark ( of course Hawk and I account for much of the remainder).
Yeah, well, we too are learning. :) Slowly, but we're getting there. As the forum expands a tough question is how much control to exert, how much freedom to leave? Too tight turns away members but so does too loose. Depends on who you want to keep around.

I almost closed this thread at around 50 posts when it looked like it was going to spin out of control. Then I figured, what the hey, if people remain civil and they want to continue the debate, what's the harm in that?

After a while though, these long threads, that I too have helped draw out (never Mavs of course :rolleyes: ) make me think of a snake eating its tail.

Mavs00

10-17-2006, 09:38 AM

I guess now we have really hit bottom extending a thread discussing extending of threads.

or demonstrating the futility of maintaining a thread on life support :D

AlpineSummit

10-17-2006, 09:56 AM

I saw that dang horse twitch just a few mins ago - KICK IT

Little Rickie

10-17-2006, 10:03 AM

OK...The End.

hawk

10-17-2006, 11:19 AM

joseywalesb

10-17-2006, 01:18 PM

Geez, and here I was just getting ready to discuss the OTHER SIDE of the argument.

Is it Really French Louie's cave? Did he purchase it? Before Louie, was it used by any of the Iroquois or Algonquins? Did french Louie desecrate a historical site?

Damn, there was so much potential for good dialog here.

I'm pretty sure he didn't build it hawkman. I'd be willing to bet it was a tribe here longggggg before he was around. Do you know which tribes frequented that area??? You seem to be quite adept at indian history of that area...

Valerie

10-17-2006, 02:43 PM

Is it Really French Louie's cave? Did he purchase it? Before Louie, was it used by any of the Iroquois or Algonquins? Did french Louie desecrate a historical site?

Whats kinda ironic is that Mr. Seymour, aka French Louie, was squatting on state land, an act that would be considered illegal today. While doing so it is highly likely that he was breaking state game laws to survive.

joseywalesb

10-17-2006, 03:24 PM

Whats kinda ironic is that Mr. Seymour, aka French Louie, was squatting on state land, an act that would be considered illegal today. While doing so it is highly likely that he was breaking state game laws to survive.

Exactly.... My grandfather told me about things like that. He remembered before they had laws about Jacking deer and seasons on big game. When they first got game wardens up in this area they did all kinds of stuff to get rid of them. They were merely hunting for food to eat at that time. This area was full of dirt poor folks who would have to hunt year around just to be able to eat. Poaching/jacking, spearing pike in the spring was all part of eating back then. Not acceptable by any means now, but was something that had to be done. Size of families made a big difference also. Most were farmers and just scraping to feed their families. That's an excellent point of what's acceptable by today's standards vs. years ago. There's still an old guy that does that every spring/fall and sometimes in the winter. He just heads out in the mountains and lives off the land. I can't mention his name on here, but he's a wild old bird that still lives like the old timers did. Thanks Val...

hawk

10-17-2006, 03:36 PM

The thing is, that there are so many aspects to this beyond whether the posting of information was right or wrong. for the record on that i believe it's an individual choice.

But it does bring up questions.

If this cave has great historical significance, enough to merit it's protection:

Has the DEC or any historical organization photographed it's location and interior? if not, why not?

Can more be done to protect it? You can't move a cave into a museum, or can you?

Would notices at the location stating that is part of the history of the Adirondacks and to not deface it help? The DEC would have to put those up because if anyone else did they would be defacing the tree or the rock technically.

If French louie was "squatting" illegally, then is this cave a good example of history? Couldn't it encourage others to do the same and cite Louie and Noah John as precedents?

Is one of the many trappers/guides in the Adirondacks any more historical then the other? What about Sabael Benedict, a Penobscot guide/trapper and the Indian that Indian lake is named for as well as the town of Sabael? There were a wealth of trappers and guides in the Adirondacks, what makes Louie more special then any of them? It was a way of life here in the early times.

So there really are a lot of thoughts that come to light. I happen to have read a lot about frenh Louie since his domain was not far from where I live, byt regaardless of which side of any of the above questions you are on, there certainly are some questions that maybe should be answered.

And if in the long run, your beliefs are that the site should be perserved for posterity, then perhaps collectively we can do something to ensue it is better protected. And i don't really think we can keep it concealed, even if we wanted to.

I'm going to stay out of this, having put forth some food for thought. I'm just curious as to what others think. In some cases i have played the Devils Advocate here since I think there are many sides to this. None of what is above necessarily reflects my views.