Trailless Peaks???

[joseywalesb]

I know there are a few trailless peaks, I have done a few of them. I'd like to find out everyone's opinion on maintaining trails. I read the Trail grooming that Neil posted, excellent info btw, and was wondering why they are not all maintained. I.e. erosion, new paths, trampling of the forest, etc... On the few trailless ones I have been on, there were many paths going all directions, seemed to me it was because people were trampling around looking for their way. 1. Wouldn't it be better environmentally to maintain the trails, all trails?? if not, why? 2. Who are all the groups that maintain/determine what trails need to be maintained, I understand how they do it, but why? I've been on the trail over to Seward and saw where they'd cut logs, and I mean LOGS into pieces to get them off the trail... Seems odd for a trailless peak they'd do this... 3. For history, when was it determined that the trailless peaks there are would be trailless??? Thanks for the info...

[Dick]

I know there are a few trailless peaks, I have done a few of them. I'd like to find out everyone's opinion on maintaining trails. I read the Trail grooming that Neil posted, excellent info btw, and was wondering why they are not all maintained. I.e. erosion, new paths, trampling of the forest, etc... On the few trailless ones I have been on, there were many paths going all directions, seemed to me it was because people were trampling around looking for their way. 1. Wouldn't it be better environmentally to maintain the trails, all trails?? if not, why? 2. Who are all the groups that maintain/determine what trails need to be maintained, I understand how they do it, but why? I've been on the trail over to Seward and saw where they'd cut logs, and I mean LOGS into pieces to get them off the trail... Seems odd for a trailless peak they'd do this... 3. For history, when was it determined that the trailless peaks there are would be trailless??? Thanks for the info...

None of the 46 high peaks is currently "trailless." None of them. Personally, I would like to see the word "trailless" eliminated from references to these mountains, though preservation of the term may be important to some. However, ALL of them were trailless at one time. Phelps was once designated a "trailless" peak. Do to years of hiking, herdpaths have developed. Some of these are unmaintained, but herdpaths nevertheless. Some of these paths in recent years have undergone a certain degree of official maintenance (Nye, Marshall, Redfield, others), and others have received non-official "improvements" (cairns, blowdonwn clearing, etc.). The reason for the formal maintenance is to preserve the mountain by preventing/eliminating multiple herdpaths, etc., but not specifically to make it easier for hikers. Cliff, for example, due to erosion, will receive a brand new trail in a year or two. Pete Hickey and others will correct me if I'm wrong and will certainly give a better picture of the process involved, but my understanding is that organizations largely responsible for this maintenance include ADK, ATIS, and the 46ers, under the watchful eye of DEC. Signs of maintenance, old or new, formal or otherwise, can be seen on most of these peaks. I believe Pete has said that maintenance would occur in order to eliminate the proliferation of herdpaths only, and that otherwise the obstacle would stay.

Dick

[Rivet]

Since you opened this pandoras box. I always wondered why they don't just put up trail markers on the "traillesss" peaks. It would prevent future herd paths from forming. I know it's not in the UMP. I imagine this is the next step as they are already starting to mark the start of the paths with signs (ex. Tabletop).

[Skyclimber]

Since you opened this pandoras box. I always wondered why they don't just put up trail markers on the "traillesss" peaks. It would prevent future herd paths from forming. I know it's not in the UMP. I imagine this is the next step as they are already starting to mark the start of the paths with signs (ex. Tabletop).

I have asked the same question but got the answer, "that they will leave them unmarked and call them Wilderness Paths."

They will give them minimal maintenance only for the sake of not creating new herdpaths.

Tabletop is marked at the beginning because many hikers were following the herdpath, thinking they were climbing Marcy!

[joseywalesb]

More troll bait?

Now why is this troll bait? These aren't good questions? I apologize if my questions offend. These aren't argumentable by any means. I've lived in this area for a long time and still, every time I go hiking someone hits me with an area I have not heard of in the park. No matter who you are, I guarantee there are some places in the park you do not know about... I just want some education and background. If this is trolling, I guess I am. :rolleyes:

[molly_brown]

You bring up some good questions Josey....i myself have wondered why some peaks in your area are maintained and taken care of in regards to trail conditions and why others are not.....the 46 mountains in NY that people aim to conquer are all very much travelled...so why not give attention to all? I myself have climbed a few of your mountains and the beauty they hold are beyond anything else i have seen...i will admit i found it disturbing to walk through saint huberts in Keene NY and see houses, golf courses, and tennis courts on a trail to the beautiful mountains such as Gothics, Armstrong, and the others in that area....everyone has varying opinions on what is right and wrong in regards to how areas of land are to be treated. One good example is Mount Everest....how many people have climbed that and claimed that oxygen tanks litter the mountain because people did not carry them down? Yet this is accepted and there they stay....it all depends on what the hiking community will determine what we other hikers will deal with....those that take those matters into their hands and make the decisions I mean...but we can voice our opinions and make suggestions...especially those like you who live in that area...my opinion is that the high peaks area is gorgeous and does need to be protected...and maintained if it is to continue being an escape, a refuge, and a safe place for people like us to find solitude in.....

[Skyclimber]

You bring up some good questions Josey....i myself have wondered why some peaks in your area are maintained and taken care of in regards to trail conditions and why others are not.....the 46 mountains in NY that people aim to conquer are all very much travelled...so why not give attention to all? I myself have climbed a few of your mountains and the beauty they hold are beyond anything else i have seen...i will admit i found it disturbing to walk through saint huberts in Keene NY and see houses, golf courses, and tennis courts on a trail to the beautiful mountains such as Gothics, Armstrong, and the others in that area....everyone has varying opinions on what is right and wrong in regards to how areas of land are to be treated. .

The AuSable Club in St. Huberts happens to be a Private Club! It is a privilege to US to be able to hike those Mountains in that area. They are the only Private Club who allows Public Access to their land. They also do not charge us parking fees to hike, unlike the ADK Loj and the Garden. They maintain their own trails.

[Skyclimber]

More troll bait?


Okay Peakbagr I am with YOU! This is more troll bait!

[joseywalesb]

Okay Peakbagr I am with YOU! This is more troll bait!

OMG, so anytime anyone asks anything it's trollbait? BS. I was asking for history. How's/why's. It's in Neil's upcoming letter. He must be a troll also. I was seeing if I could find out before hand from some others that didn't read it out of a book. I.e. #1246 seems to have some good info from his father. Get real. You think I don't have better things to do than come on here and argue? I'd like to know more from people who were there, not that just read it in some book like most. The only stupid question is the one not asked... Do you know any of the answers??? If not, I guess it would infuriate you and lean towards some trouble maker. Fact is, I've hit some good topics that you don't have the answers for. How bout talking to some of your friends and finding out for me... Stop saying I'm trolling. I'm an interested person here on this forum, and from the amount of responses, other people are also. Stay with the topic or find another thread. :)

[joseywalesb]

The AuSable Club in St. Huberts happens to be a Private Club! It is a privilege to US to be able to hike those Mountains in that area. They are the only Private Club who allows Public Access to their land. They also do not charge us parking fees to hike, unlike the ADK Loj and the Garden. They maintain their own trails.

And yes, this is true. You ever see any of those snots stick up their nose at you when you walk by? Cracks me up, lmao.... :p

[Skyclimber]

And yes, this is true. You ever see any of those snots stick up their nose at you when you walk by? Cracks me up, lmao.... :p

Those "snots" happen to own that land. They baught that land to keep it from being lumbered years ago, from destroying the beauty of the land and the mountains surrounding it. They should be treated with respect!

[randomscooter]

OMG, so anytime anyone asks anything it's trollbait? BS. I was asking for history. How's/why's. It's in Neil's upcoming letter. He must be a troll also. I was seeing if I could find out before hand from some others that didn't read it out of a book. I.e. #1246 seems to have some good info from his father. Get real. You think I don't have better things to do than come on here and argue? I'd like to know more from people who were there, not that just read it in some book like most. The only stupid question is the one not asked... Do you know any of the answers??? If not, I guess it would infuriate you and lean towards some trouble maker. Fact is, I've hit some good topics that you don't have the answers for. How bout talking to some of your friends and finding out for me... Stop saying I'm trolling. I'm an interested person here on this forum, and from the amount of responses, other people are also. Stay with the topic or find another thread. :)
I haven't seen anything wrong with your questions. I'm not sure why some folks reactions are so hostile...maybe I missed something. Almost seems like assumption of guilt to me. Perhaps I'm naive, but when it comes to assumptions on the integrity of my fellow man I'd rather live in the bright light and risk occasional disappointment than live under the dark veil of perpetual distrust. My suggestion is that you ignore the hostile comments.

[pete_hickey]

I guess I should finish up that thing on trail construction. The next section will contain a bit about the history of the trails and the 'trailless' trails.

Who maintains them? The 46ers. Not the ADK. We signed an ANAR agreement with the DEC.

Now, the why about it.

Back in the 90's, when the UMP (Unit management Plan) was being hammered out, they set up a sub-committee, "The Trailless Peaks Committee". Its purpose was to recomend how the 'trailless peaks' should be maintained. The committee was made up of representatives from the DEC, ADK, 46ers, and the public.

Note that in this discussion, the term "trailless peaks" only refers to those of the 46 (plus MacNaughton).

Due to increased use, the conditions of the "trailless peaks" were getting pretty bad. While the herd paths were capable of carrying the traffic of the 70's and early 80's, they were unable to withstand the increasedd traffic. Multiple herd paths were developing in many places, and traffic in streams was causing significant erosion on the banks in high water. Note that by 'multiple herd paths', I am not talking about multiple routes to a summit. I'm talking a path splitting and rejoining itself a bit later.

The worst one was the case of Street and Nye. There were some people who beleived that the herd paths were making it too easy for people to get the 46, so they created numerous false paths to confuse the hiker. Indeed, this worked, because Street & Nye used to be the area of the most search and rescue operations coming out of the Loj.

There were some who wanted the paths to remain untouched; that they be as wild and raw as they could. There were others who wanted them to become trailed peaks. As usual, when there is a committee with oposing viewpoints, a compromise was made. Here is what the compromise was:

Each route to the trailless peaks will be reviewed and refurbished. IT will then receive MINIMUM maintenence. The purpose of the maintenence is to keep a single ecologically sound path. They will have minimal markings. The preferred method of keeping people on the trail, is by making it look more attractive than the alternatives. Maintenence is done, NOT for the convienience of the hiker, but to maintain a single path.

We visit and refurbish a peak, after which, a 'path adopter' is assigned to visit the peak, twice a year, performing minimal maintenence (if necessary)

The first peak we refurbished was Tabletop. The reason it was first is that it was short, close, easy, and would make a good test to see how things would work. Since it was a 'historical moment' there were quite a number of 46ers there, one from the ADK, and one from the DEC. That was back around '96 or '97. The ADK hasn't been involved since.

The next one on the agenda was Street & Nye. The DEC was anxious for us to close off the myriad of false paths to eliminate all the SAR. This was finished in '97 or '98. It changed Street & Nye from being a long confusing hike, to one of the easiest of the 'trailles peaks'.

Following that we did Marshall, Esther, Redfield, and Macomb. In the queue is Cliff and Gray. Cliff is waiting on APA aproval for a re-route, and Gray is having an environmental study done. The DEC would like us to work on the sewards next, because those paths are in bad shape. We don't want to do them until the queue gets unplugged. We planned the Cliff reroute several eyars ago, and there is a chance our flagging is gone by now, and we'll have to do that work again. We don't want that to happen again.

I should fix this up, and add it to my 'Trail Construction.' stuff.

[daLunartik]

Now why is this troll bait? These aren't good questions? I apologize if my questions offend. These aren't argumentable by any means. I've lived in this area for a long time and still, every time I go hiking someone hits me with an area I have not heard of in the park. No matter who you are, I guarantee there are some places in the park you do not know about... I just want some education and background. If this is trolling, I guess I am. :rolleyes:
Whether intentional or not, you've started two threads on subjects that are rather controversial and have a tendancy to get heated quickly. While very legitamite questions, they have been asked, commented on and expounded ad naseum in this and other forums. For many of us, it is easy to dismiss these questions out of hand as being a troll trying to stir up a flame war - particularly so since a common trolling tactic is to post as a "newbie" seeking enlightenment.

While I've certainly enjoyed the 46r thread, a little searching of the forum on your questions before posting may avoid a "troll" label/comment. But don't let that stop you from posting your questions!

[joseywalesb]

I guess I should finish up that thing on trail construction. The next section will contain a bit about the history of the trails and the 'trailless' trails.

Who maintains them? The 46ers. Not the ADK. We signed an ANAR agreement with the DEC.

Now, the why about it.

Back in the 90's, when the UMP (Unit management Plan) was being hammered out, they set up a sub-committee, "The Trailless Peaks Committee". Its purpose was to recomend how the 'trailless peaks' should be maintained. The committee was made up of representatives from the DEC, ADK, 46ers, and the public.

Note that in this discussion, the term "trailless peaks" only refers to those of the 46 (plus MacNaughton).

Due to increased use, the conditions of the "trailless peaks" were getting pretty bad. While the herd paths were capable of carrying the traffic of the 70's and early 80's, they were unable to withstand the increasedd traffic. Multiple herd paths were developing in many places, and traffic in streams was causing significant erosion on the banks in high water. Note that by 'multiple herd paths', I am not talking about multiple routes to a summit. I'm talking a path splitting and rejoining itself a bit later.

The worst one was the case of Street and Nye. There were some people who beleived that the herd paths were making it too easy for people to get the 46, so they created numerous false paths to confuse the hiker. Indeed, this worked, because Street & Nye used to be the area of the most search and rescue operations coming out of the Loj.

There were some who wanted the paths to remain untouched; that they be as wild and raw as they could. There were others who wanted them to become trailed peaks. As usual, when there is a committee with oposing viewpoints, a compromise was made. Here is what the compromise was:

Each route to the trailless peaks will be reviewed and refurbished. IT will then receive MINIMUM maintenence. The purpose of the maintenence is to keep a single ecologically sound path. They will have minimal markings. The preferred method of keeping people on the trail, is by making it look more attractive than the alternatives. Maintenence is done, NOT for the convienience of the hiker, but to maintain a single path.

We visit and refurbish a peak, after which, a 'path adopter' is assigned to visit the peak, twice a year, performing minimal maintenence (if necessary)

The first peak we refurbished was Tabletop. The reason it was first is that it was short, close, easy, and would make a good test to see how things would work. Since it was a 'historical moment' there were quite a number of 46ers there, one from the ADK, and one from the DEC. That was back around '96 or '97. The ADK hasn't been involved since.

The next one on the agenda was Street & Nye. The DEC was anxious for us to close off the myriad of false paths to eliminate all the SAR. This was finished in '97 or '98. It changed Street & Nye from being a long confusing hike, to one of the easiest of the 'trailles peaks'.

Following that we did Marshall, Esther, Redfield, and Macomb. In the queue is Cliff and Gray. Cliff is waiting on APA aproval for a re-route, and Gray is having an environmental study done. The DEC would like us to work on the sewards next, because those paths are in bad shape. We don't want to do them until the queue gets unplugged. We planned the Cliff reroute several eyars ago, and there is a chance our flagging is gone by now, and we'll have to do that work again. We don't want that to happen again.

I should fix this up, and add it to my 'Trail Construction.' stuff.

Awesome post Pete. Thanks a bunch for all the info. I really appreciate it. Do you have any of the history behind the trailless or was it just random? And if only the 46er's take care of the trail, how can they possibly get to all of them each year, or do they just try to tackle the absolute worst ones? Over near the great range, on St. Huberts side, does the AMIC or whoever that is maintain their trails???? or is that done by the 6er's?

[lumberzac]

Over near the great range, on St. Huberts side, does the AMIC or whoever that is maintain their trails???? or is that done by the 6er's?
I believe most (if not all) of the trails on the St. Huberts side are maintained by ATIS (Adirondack Trail Improvement Society).

[joseywalesb]

I believe most (if not all) of the trails on the St. Huberts side are maintained by ATIS (Adirondack Trail Improvement Society).

So is that like a private club like the 46er's? Are there any trailless peaks over in that area?? Thanks for the info btw. I always wondered what letters were on those markers, lol. :tup:

[AlpineSummit]

And yes, this is true. You ever see any of those snots stick up their nose at you when you walk by? Cracks me up, lmao.... :p

So many, actually TOO MANY, hikers have such negative comments for AMR members. They don't stick their noses up at us but rather we get pissy at THEM cuz they can drive their cars or ride the bus on the same road that we have to walk. Enjoy that walk, because we are using their land that they pay for and it's completely free for us. The AMR have been terrific stewards of the land they own and we get to use it. Where's the problem?

I doubt if all of the members are 'rich' but certainly they're well off - but being 'rich' doesn't make a person bad. Hell, even we lowly hikers driving our average cars to the trailhead are 'rich' to a great many underprivilidged folks on this planet. Does that make us bad also?

I don't think so......

[Mavs00]

1st - I, like Randomscooter had no issue with the posting of controversial topics, and think they stimulated good discussion..... HOWEVER.






The use of -INTERNET SOCK-PUPPETRY- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29) is deceptive and just plain poor form in any online community. JoseyWales and Molly Brown (who are in fact the same person) have been banned from this forum for one month.

Sock-puppetry is certainly not an illegal act, like taking a machete up to Couchsachraga, but it certainly demonstrates a similar dishonest intent to interact with a responsible Adirondack based hiking community.

[Antlerpeak]

Ah! As I suspected but not certain, Mavs ferrets out the truth. What are you saying Tim is this guy "chickendude"? Anyway let the message be loud and clear, Don't mess with Mavs! He knows his way around the P.C.

[lumberzac]

So is that like a private club like the 46er's? Are there any trailless peaks over in that area?? Thanks for the info btw. I always wondered what letters were on those markers, lol. :tup:

This should explain ATIS
http://www.atis-web.com/

As far as hiking in the AMR, the general public must stay on marked trails and or Lake Road only. There are no "trailess" peaks on AMR land.

[AlpineSummit]

JoseyWales and Molly Brown (who are in fact the same person)

I thought so too, just from the post.

Stinkin' Sock Puppets!

Looks like we've hit the BIG TIME here on our cozy little board. What's next?

[Mavs00]

Ah! As I suspected but not certain, Mavs ferrets out the truth. What are you saying Tim is this guy "chickendude"?

Read into my comment anyway you like ;) , but remember the banning actions stem from activities that occur on this forum, not from activities or actions that may have occured off it it. Off board actions are to be judged and dealt with by others that are in a better position to do so. I can only deal with what occurs here.

Anyway let the message be loud and clear, Don't mess with Mavs! He knows his way around the P.C.

Let's hope it ends here in the digital world so we can move on quickly.

[spaddock]

They don't stick their noses up at us

If anything they should be covering their noses when I come off that road.

I don't have an issue with them, in fact, that club launched off fireworks at the end of one of my hikes. (I think the fact that it was July 4th weekend was just a coincidence).


-Shayne

[Mark Schaefer]

I first bought Adirondack and AMC White Mountain trail guides in the mid 1970s. At that time both range's list of 46 peaks had "trailless" peaks, and all of these had herd paths. From the 1976 AMC White Mountain Guide: "Leading to the summits of several trail-less 4000 ft. peaks are paths that are not maintained, although progress in this direction has been made. On these, cairns may be seen. This is mentioned for the hiker who may be concerned about their existence." Over time the various organizations in the Whites took the approach to improve the unmaintained paths as full fledged, marked, and cleared trails. The Adirondacks, as Pete described very well, took a different approach to keep some sense of "trailless". I think the Adirondack method has been a noble effort that it has worked.

IMHO the Adirondack 46 does provide a more wilderness experience than does the current White 48. While completing the 46 we still need to duck under and climb over some logs, as did our ancestors. We may need to stop occasionally and scan the woods for the path. But nearly everybody should be able to find their way on the path without losing it. The paths give hikers the opportunity to practice and hone their back-woods, path-following skills. I can think of a number of marked trails that also are a challenge to follow, and blowdowns occur on both trails and paths. So the skills are useful.

Whatever the purpose of these questions as other have cited it has produced some good discussion and educational information from Pete and others for the archives.

[Neil]

Ah! As I suspected but not certain, Mavs ferrets out the truth. What are you saying Tim is this guy "chickendude"? Anyway let the message be loud and clear, Don't mess with Mavs! He knows his way around the P.C.


Lets just say we found his concern with trails and the cutting thereof "interesting". His apparent antipathy towards the 46ers in his post #1 also struck a chord. His choice of screen handle was another eyebrow raiser.

Tim figured out the clincher IMO and I'll let him elaborate if he wants to.

As the forum grows and gains more notoriety and also, more hits when people do Google searches we will get more weirdness I'm sure. On the whole though things are going very well. Lots of intersting material is being posted by excellent and well informed writers. Keep it up everybody!

[1ADAM12]

ITs not to hard to figure out who is who in the internet world. Once logged on Tim and NEil have our IP addresses :D

[Mavs00]

Lets just say we found his concern with trails and the cutting thereof "interesting". His apparent antipathy towards the 46ers in his post #1 also struck a chord. His choice of screen handle was another eyebrow raiser.

Tim figured out the clincher IMO and I'll let him elaborate if he wants to.


Nope, he won't.....

Let's reiterate, I AM SPEAKING specifically about ONLINE actions. The banning is the result of sock-puppetry and nothing else... its a moderation issue.

whatever the purpose of these questions as other have cited it has produced some good discussion and educational information from Pete and others for the archives.

Agreed, which is the specific reason I made the "banning" one month in length. If there is a genuine interest in stimulating these topics, then the month can be used as a period of reflection and he can on come back and participate fully. If not, he'll move on.

Posting controversial topics is stimulating when it remains in a respectful and educational way, and I'm proud to say both topics remained so. That speaks volumes about the quality of this community, and I thank you all for that.

Let's move on ;)

[Kevin Rooney]

Each route to the trailless peaks will be reviewed and refurbished. IT will then receive MINIMUM maintenence. The purpose of the maintenence is to keep a single ecologically sound path. They will have minimal markings. The preferred method of keeping people on the trail, is by making it look more attractive than the alternatives. Maintenence is done, NOT for the convienience of the hiker, but to maintain a single path.Pete -

How does this work, in practice, in terms of erosion control? My sense of ADK trails (or 'paths', to be politically correct) is that many of them are the most direct route to a summit. Historically, those types of trails tend to erode rather badly over time, so when some organized body takes responsibility for them, trails are re-routed in an attempt to mimimize this. However, if things like water bars are built, then the presumption is that someone will keep them cleaned occasionally.

Is erosion control a factor? Or does this run counter to the concept of 'MINIMUM maintenence'?

Kevin

[pete_hickey]

My sense of ADK trails (or 'paths', to be politically correct)...
Not a politically correct thing. The terms to aviod confusion in the UMPs. The refurbished herd paths are "Class 2 Paths" Paths, routes, trails... all well defined.
is that many of them are the most direct route to a summit. yes.
Historically, those types of trails tend to erode rather badly over time, so when some organized body takes responsibility for them, trails are re-routed in an attempt to mimimize this.
There have been reroutes on Tabletop, REdfield, Street/Nye (most recent was early this summer) and Macomb. There will be more. When I do a re-route, I never go in a straight line, but wiggle a bit here and there, around a big tree, etc. It gives the ILLUSION of a real heard path.

However, if things like water bars are built, then the presumption is that someone will keep them cleaned occasionally. A path adopter would do that 2wice a year.
Is erosion control a factor? Major one. A HUGE issue on the Sewards.

[MattC]

Sock puppets, eh? Hey-I learned something about interent forums there.

Anyhow, it is indeed ironic that the sock puppeteer has inspired a thoughtful thread.

Pete, on the erosion control topic-did you ever do any rock work on the Street/Nye path? I seem to remember a little subtle rock work in a place or two.

I feel like I'm asking a magician to reveal his secrets here. :rolleyes:
Don't answer if you're not comfortable.

Matt

[pete_hickey]

Pete, on the erosion control topic-did you ever do any rock work on the Street/Nye path? I seem to remember a little subtle rock work in a place or two.Yes. In I think four places. A couple of them (I think) look very natural.

[MattC]

Yes. In I think four places. A couple of them (I think) look very natural.

I agree. You really have to be looking. Interesting how really good rock work can sort of blend in to the "untrained" eye. Climbing Cascade yesterday I was pointing out to my dad that some of the rocks we were stepping up were in fact placed there by humans. He was quite impressed.

Matt

[Kevin Rooney]

Thanks, Pete. Am not surprised to hear that erosion is a big problem. It seems that the more 'hardened' a path/trail becomes, the more you can control erosion. Interestingly, the degree of hardened trail seems to increase from west to east - more coincidence than anything.

[knuckledragger]

Why is there a reluctance to harden? Once you introduce the human element into an area keep it confinedto the area,not spread it out ver a wider area.

[pete_hickey]

Thanks, Pete. Am not surprised to hear that erosion is a big problem. It seems that the more 'hardened' a path/trail becomes, the more you can control erosion. Interestingly, the degree of hardened trail seems to increase from west to east - more coincidence than anything.Yes and no. A well designed trail suffers little erosion. Trails which traverse and switchback up slopes suffer very little erosion. How do the trails out west tend to run? Our new trail up Cliff should have very few erosion problems, since it is mostly traversal of the slope.
Why is there a reluctance to harden? Appearance is one reason. We want to keep the "trailless peaks" looking as unmaintained as possible. We prefer handling erosion with a well designed reroute which will not erode.

Our most recent re-route on the old nye ski trail took the trail out of a muddy valley, and put it in the top of a ridge. We won't have erosion there.

Another reason is time/money. Trail hardening is very expensive if it is done well. A few weeks ago, a group of 8 of us installed waterbars on a section of trail which was about 100 yards long. 8 people working for a day is a lot for such a small bit. If we had been rockwork, the group would have done about 30 feet.

In general, we want to harden only as much as necessary. We could pave a path up Marcy, and there would be no erosion.

[Mavs00]

Sock puppets, eh? Hey-I learned something about interent forums there.

Anyhow, it is indeed ironic that the sock puppeteer has inspired a thoughtful thread.

On sock puppets..... in further discussions, it seems as the the second account (Molly Brown) is possilby someone in the same household (hence the same IP), but not the same person. That's the claim and there is nothing to refute it. It's still sock puppetry, but of a much less severity. The ban has been reduced accordingly.... 7 days.

And your right........ It is ironic that he inspired such a thoughtful discussion.

[Kevin Rooney]

Pete -

By my comment 'west to east' I was referred to NY->-VT->NH/ME. In VT the GMC ends up, one way or the other, being responsible for most of the hiking trails, at least in terms of sheer mileage, for not only do they maintain the Long Trail, but also all the side 'feeder' trails. Their standard of maintenance is higher than the ADK's, but not nearly so much as in the Whites of NH, where large sections of trail have been hardened with rock. Some of this is simply a function of time -some sections of the Whites have had trails since before the American Revolution, whereas formal trail maintenance in the ADKs is rather recent. Interestingly enough, there are lots of organizations who do trail maintenance in the Whites - the USFS, AMC, RMC and Wonalancet are the major ones, but there are others - yet all seem to be similar in terms of their techniques. A minor difference I've noticed within the various NH organizations is the Wonalanct people make their signs orangish and place them high off the ground, ala' the ADKs. Wonalancet maintains trails around the Waterville Valley area (Whiteface, Passaconoway, etc) and RMC is the western side Northern Presis and smaller hills around Randolph, NH.

On the topic of signs - the very best signs I've ever seen are on Mt Shasta, and there are only 2 or 3 that I've noticed. But, here's where they shine - they're made of steel, about the same size as you find in the East Coast, but the lettering is created by cutting out the steel itself to form the letters. It (the lettering) is very smooth, so my hunch is it's done with a laser. The signs look like they'd last forever, seem imprevious to vandalism, and if you whack them with an ice axe/pole in winter to clear the snow you don't run the risk of splintering off a chunk. Alas - the USFS/USPS juridisdictions never seem to talk with each other, so good ideas re: signage, human waste disposal, etc seem to be end where the next jurisdiction begins.

As for trails in the far West (CA, OR, and WA) - mostly there aren't any unless you're doing some of the well-known ones, like Whitney, Hood, Rainier, Telescope, etc. What you usually find is a trailhead (of sorts) and occasionally a sorta herd path, not unlike the ADKs, which lead off in the general direction of a summit or more likely a pass. Occasionally you'll spot a 'duck', which is 2 or 3 small rocks piled up which indicate this way may be slightly better than that way. The slang for this method of hiking is 'going cross-country' as opposed to 'bushwhacking'. There's not much brush in the Sierra compared to the east, so 'bushwhacking' is not a representative term. The exception to this around streambeds in small ravines/canyons, and there the brush (usually willows) can be so dense as to be virtually impenetrable.

Some of the Sierra peaks near me I can access via the PCT. The PCT rarely goes over a peak (unlike the Long Trail or Appalachian Trail), usually skirting them. But, that can put you close enough so that you can go 'cross-country' to reach its summit and return.

[lumberzac]

Please don’t flame me for this question (it’s not intended to troll, but a serious question to try and think about this from a different angle), but would not doing trail hardening and allowing the trails to erode really be detrimental to the environment of the Adirondacks? Over used and eroded trails are definitely eyesores, but I don’t know if they really harm the mountains (please note I’m only referring to trails below the Alpine vegetation zone). There reason I say this is because about 10000 years ago the Adirondacks were covered by glaciers that removed all of the topsoil.
It would also be interesting to see a measure of human influenced erosion, such as trail erosion vs. natural erosion, such as slides.

[Willie]

A well designed trail suffers little erosion. Trails which traverse and switchback up slopes suffer very little erosion. How do the trails out west tend to run?
When I was hiking in Arizona a couple of weeks ago, that was one of my observations - a lot of switchbacks, some water bars, and little erosion. Everything is relative, of course.

[Dick]

When I was hiking in Arizona a couple of weeks ago, that was one of my observations - a lot of switchbacks, some water bars, and little erosion. Everything is relative, of course.

Also our experience in living and hiking in Colorado in years past.

Dick

[MattC]

Please don’t flame me for this question (it’s not intended to troll, but a serious question to try and think about this from a different angle), but would not doing trail hardening and allowing the trails to erode really be detrimental to the environment of the Adirondacks? Over used and eroded trails are definitely eyesores, but I don’t know if they really harm the mountains (please note I’m only referring to trails below the Alpine vegetation zone). There reason I say this is because about 10000 years ago the Adirondacks were covered by glaciers that removed all of the topsoil.
It would also be interesting to see a measure of human influenced erosion, such as trail erosion vs. natural erosion, such as slides.

I actually think this is an interesting question. I've also been of the mind that eroded trails are primarily an issue of aesthetics and making it more difficult to travel for hikers. However, if the erosion is really bad, I imagine that the trees and other vegetation around the trails will actually be adversely affected, if not killed. The trail may begin to act as a conduit for a great deal of soil to wash down the slope. I think it's one of those questions that plays out like this:

Building a trail at all, by definition should affect the forest. Obviously because you're cutting vegetation to clear the trail itself, and also because it is likely to bring more people into the area. But perhaps a very well-designed trail can at least minimize the adverse effects.

There are currently some re-routes of the Long Path being cut in the Catskills. I believe Michael Kudish has done a tree survey in the area around one of the re-routes and he plans to come back many years from now and do another one around the trail to see what, if any impact has taken place in the immediate area. That should be interesting. Forest change is interesting because so many things both natural and human-influenced take a long time to observe. Erosion isn't like taking a chainsaw to something or having a slide come down.

Matt

[Daniel Eagan]

When I was hiking in Arizona a couple of weeks ago, that was one of my observations - a lot of switchbacks, some water bars, and little erosion. Everything is relative, of course.

I've hiked a lot around Tucson, and trails there range from unmarked bushwhacks to carefully plotted routes with stone steps. But you're in the desert there, so there's no undergrowth to speak of, very little rain to cause erosion, and trails that generally stay on or close to ridges. Plus usage is minimal compared to the ADKs.

Go up Wrightson and you're basically on a road the whole way, a road that used to supply the caretaker's cabin on the summit. The Wasson route is all switchbacks with stone steps on the turns. Horses would have no trouble on it. The trail to Mt. Kembal ranges from road to rock scramble to sections that are so heavily eroded that you basically have to crawl up and down them.

In many places they use steel signs. Some of the registers are on poles waist high, with a steel lid over them. I suppose to keep scorpions, spiders, snakes, etc., out.

[C.Tracy]

And yes, this is true. You ever see any of those snots stick up their nose at you when you walk by? Cracks me up, lmao.... :p


I have to disagree with this comment. My fiance' and I were turning right, on the road past the golf course last weekend, after a hike of Nippletop and Dial, when a very polite male member came up to us and asked us if we had a good hike. He was a gentleman, and by no means a "snot". I have heard this comment from other hikers, not just this "banned" poster.

[Dick]

I have to disagree with this comment. My fiance' and I were turning right, on the road past the golf course last weekend, after a hike of Nippletop and Dial, when a very polite male member came up to us and asked us if we had a good hike. He was a gentleman, and by no means a "snot". I have heard this comment from other hikers, not just this "banned" poster.

All of our many interactions with AMR people have been quite cordial and friendly, save one very minor incident (someone who probably just had a bad day, as any of us might!). That includes the woman who almost beaned me with a golf ball once, and she apolgized profusely! :) It should go without saying that it behooves all of us to be as friendly as possible as we pass through this land that does not belong to us.

Dick

[Skyclimber]

They have been so kind and generous to the Public in sharing their land that they baught and paid for. They don't have to let us on their land if they don't want to.

People resent them, thinking their rules are too strict but bottom line, the Members also have rules they must follow. Their rules only get stricter towards the Public because the Public has failed to follow the rules! It's only ourselves we have to blame not them!

[timmus]

I have to disagree with this comment. My fiance' and I were turning right, on the road past the golf course last weekend, after a hike of Nippletop and Dial, when a very polite male member came up to us and asked us if we had a good hike. He was a gentleman, and by no means a "snot".

Neil and I got an amazing gift from one the members : post-hike BEERS !! Cold Heinekens, after our 12 hours Blake Slide journey. He came out of his house with a big smile and two bottles, it was an amazing sight !

He's actually a golfer/hiker, working on the 46. Can't remember his name, but he sure was a gentleman !

[lumberzac]

Like others, all of my encounters with club members have been good ones. All of the members I’ve come across have been friendly and polite. In fact the only negative experience I’ve ever had on the AMR was coming across a pile of feces that someone left behind in the middle of Lake Road. It almost ruined my day.

[Kevin Rooney]

They have been so kind and generous to the Public in sharing their land that they baught and paid for. They don't have to let us on their land if they don't want to.

People resent them, thinking their rules are too strict but bottom line, the Members also have rules they must follow. Their rules only get stricter towards the Public because the Public has failed to follow the rules! It's only ourselves we have to blame not them!It's not my intention to start a heated argument here, so please bear that in mind. My sense is that the AMR is not allowing access 'out of the goodness of their heart'. Several years ago, during the Cuomo administration, I hiked several peaks with my cousin who was (is) an Assistant Attorney General with NY state. While he wasn't directly involved in negotiations with the AMR, he was aware of them. IIRC his conversations, the AMR was 'urged' by the state to allow permanent access, with some restrictions, to the general public thru and onto AMR lands. I believe the state held the ultimate 'trump' in that it could have taken legal action to acquire the land via emminent domain had negotiations failed, but that was not necessary. In return for access by the general public it was agreed that camping would not be allowed, nor pets, and that the AMR would restrict the use of the bus to AMR members only, members only at the lake, etc. As I said, that's my general recollection of his conversations and perhaps there are others here who were actual parties in the negotiations. So, as hikers we should be good neighbors with the AMR, as we should be anywhere we hike. But, I don't think the hiking community is in any immediate danger of losing access to lands owned by the AMR should they decide at the next board meeting to close and lock the gate. Perhaps Pete Hickey or others may have first hand knowledge and would care to comment on the accuracy my cousin's conversation.

My own experiences with AMR members/staff have been mixed. On a few occasions I was greeted in a friendly manner, much like hikers do with each other on the trail. At other times people looked right thru me. The most glaring instance of this was on a road walk out. Two woman were walking towards the lake and we observed each other for about 1/3 mile as we walked toward each other. I gave a cheery 'Hello' and they looked right thru me! Rather odd, but it was karma they created, not me. All in all - I think the reception hikers get from the AMR crowd is much the same as in an urban environment - mostly people ignore each other and pretend they don't exist. Is it reflective of small-town friendliness you might expect to find in the Adirondacks? No, but it does reflect the attitude of many urban dwellers, and this, after all, is where most of them (and us) live.

[Mark Schaefer]

The specific NYS owned easements on foot trails in the AMR property are listed on the DEC website (http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/regs/part190c.html#190.28), dating from 1978.

[Kevin Rooney]

Excellent, Mark - thanks! It appears the conversations with my cousin were part of the background discussions among the various parties which culminated in these NYSDEC Regs.

(PS - did we meet one day a few years ago on the summit of Mansfield? Bright, sunny day, if cool and windy? I had the big guy with me in the avatar?)

[Mark Schaefer]

(PS - did we meet one day a few years ago on the summit of Mansfield? Bright, sunny day, if cool and windy? I had the big guy with me in the avatar?) No, we have not met, and I would have remembered Bruno if we had. Although I have seen so many photos of the big guy over the years it almost feels like I know him. :)

[C.Tracy]

Neil and I got an amazing gift from one the members : post-hike BEERS !! Cold Heinekens, after our 12 hours Blake Slide journey. He came out of his house with a big smile and two bottles, it was an amazing sight !

He's actually a golfer/hiker, working on the 46. Can't remember his name, but he sure was a gentleman !


Well, I may have to change my stance on the AMR people :p Heinekens...........maybe we should have nicer :D , Well at least they drink good quality :cool:

[Daniel Eagan]

My sense is that the AMR is not allowing access 'out of the goodness of their heart'. Several years ago, during the Cuomo administration, I hiked several peaks with my cousin who was (is) an Assistant Attorney General with NY state. While he wasn't directly involved in negotiations with the AMR, he was aware of them. IIRC his conversations, the AMR was 'urged' by the state to allow permanent access, with some restrictions, to the general public thru and onto AMR lands. I believe the state held the ultimate 'trump' in that it could have taken legal action to acquire the land via emminent domain had negotiations failed, but that was not necessary.

This is a somewhat distorted version of what happened. The real trump was the threat of taxing the land beyond what anyone, or thing, could pay.

As often happens within clubs, the membership was divided about what to do. Many did not want to sell the summits in question to the state, and many did not want permanent easements. But others argued that the club had always allowed hiking on its land. When the club was assured by the state that restrictions against hunting, camping, dogs, etc., would continue, the majority of members agreed to the terms of the easement.

The bus issue has changed over the years. It has nothing to do with the state or easements. Right now bus usage is limited to members, guests, and residents of Keene Valley.

So, as hikers we should be good neighbors with the AMR, as we should be anywhere we hike. But, I don't think the hiking community is in any immediate danger of losing access to lands owned by the AMR should they decide at the next board meeting to close and lock the gate.

No, the club can't close the trails, but it can make using the trails a lot more difficult. If the club chose to pursue hikers who disobey regulations, or in other words "crack down" on people who sneak in dogs, who camp illegally, who leave trash, who bushwhack, who break into club buildings, etc., those trails could become a far less enjoyable experience.

My own experiences with AMR members/staff have been mixed. On a few occasions I was greeted in a friendly manner, much like hikers do with each other on the trail. At other times people looked right thru me. The most glaring instance of this was on a road walk out. Two woman were walking towards the lake and we observed each other for about 1/3 mile as we walked toward each other. I gave a cheery 'Hello' and they looked right thru me! Rather odd, but it was karma they created, not me.

I've certainly been ignored, snubbed, or "looked through" quite often on trails--by hikers, campers, whomever. It even happens to me here on the streets of New York City. In fact, I can't count the number of women who have ignored me. If two women (who may or may not have been club members) failed to respond to your "cheery" hello in the way you wanted them to, I don't see why you should blame the club. Why not blame the general decline in civility over the past decades?

Finally, when people want to blame the AMR for owning land or not being polite enough, why don't they complain against Finch Pruyn, who keeps everyone off its land? Or the Underwood Club? Or the Elk Lake Lodge? Or any other organization that prohibits hiking? The AMR has consistently been a friend to hikers, as well as a dedicated steward of the land. I don't know what more you would want.

[TEO]

Interestingly, the degree of hardened trail seems to increase from west to east - more coincidence than anything.

Er, I think you mean that it increases from East to West. The trails in the Whites are more hardened than those in the Greens, which are subsequently more hardened than those in the 'Dacks.

Others have said it many times, but the Ausable Club and AMR have been commendable stewards of the land.

[pete_hickey]

Er, I think you mean that it increases from East to West. The trails in the Whites are more hardened than those in the Greens, which are subsequently more hardened than those in the 'Dacks.Not much time to answer all the questions posed above, but....

Soil conditions in those areas differ considerably. Definatley a factor. Much more miniral soil as one heads east from the Adirondacks. It takes more time to harden a section of organic soil, than it does mineral soil. We all know that Time == Money.

Another thing is funding. I suspect that the AMC has more money than the ADK. In fact, the ADK does very little trail work. Yes they have a professional trail crew, but much of their work is work contracted by the DEC. IE, the DEC pays the ADK to have the trailwork done.

Not sure who pays for the maintenencne that the AMC/RMC crews do.

[knuckledragger]

I beleive that the northeast is second only to the northwest for rainfall, so do I beleive that there is very little trail erosin in Arizona and Colerado. Yes
Also Kevin The Gmc has responsibilty for trail maintenance but the state directs the projects that will be done on state land and the feds direct the maintainence projects on fed land so the ultimate responsibility for trail condition, routeing,and weather or not a trail is hardened or relocated is with VT Forest & Parks or Forest service.

[pete_hickey]

...The Gmc has responsibilty.... the state directs ...But who PAYS for it? Trail mainenence is expensive.

[Kevin Rooney]

I've certainly been ignored, snubbed, or "looked through" quite often on trails--by hikers, campers, whomever. It even happens to me here on the streets of New York City. In fact, I can't count the number of women who have ignored me. If two women (who may or may not have been club members) failed to respond to your "cheery" hello in the way you wanted them to, I don't see why you should blame the club. Why not blame the general decline in civility over the past decades? Daniel - Somehow the impact (at least for me) of being snubbed is greater when out in the woods. Many of us develop a sense of camraderie with total strangers while in the backcountry, so being snubbed is all the more obvious if it occurs there. And yes, I do think this occurs frequently in the ADKs. More so than I've experienced in Maine. I've always attributed it to a prejudice I have that rural people tend to be friendlier to strangers than urban people, and you're more liker to run into a hiker from an urban area in the ADKs than you are in Baxtor. That's been my experience whether urban is NYC, Montreal, Boston, Houston, Madrid or London. Just seems to be human nature. Personally, I prefer to live in an atmosphere where people aren't afraid to greet each other. But that's just me.

As for the general decline in civility - I don't know there's any evidence to support that statement.

Finally, on that topic - there's a great commercial out now that is a series of vignettes in which a person does a good deed for another, and how that person in turn passes on the good dead. It's one of those feel good commercials, but it serves as a reminder of the power our words and facial expressions have on each other.


Er, I think you mean that it increases from East to West. The trails in the Whites are more hardened than those in the Greens, which are subsequently more hardened than those in the 'Dacks.Yes - thanks for catching that TEO.